Falcon 50/900 Information Needed

[bigD]

You must be bored. I recognize unmitigated Flame Bait when I see it.

As evidenced by the winking smiley face at the end of my post!

 

[GVFlyer]

That's an idea...
Using that reasoning, they could buy a "pick of the litter" used Falcon 50 and put the difference in the bank. Their boss could then pay them each a quater million a year plus pay all of the operating cost forever on just the interest.

I was humorously comparing aircraft of similar capabilities. The G450 is 51% larger than the F900EX, flies 3500 nm @ M 0.85 or 4350 nm @ M 0.80 and will always go initially to at least 41,000 feet.

But they'd still only have two engines.

Which is all you need. Across over 4,000,000 hours of Rolls Royce engine fleet time in the Gulfstream the number of inflight shutdowns have been so rare as to be statistically insignificant. The G-IV and derivatives meet over double ETOPS 180 requirements.

All things considered, however, I bet the crew likes your solution best.

GV

 

[banned username 2]

difference in DOC ($1744 vs. $1688)

These numbers look pretty old... What fuel price was used to generate these figures? I would bet there is a larger difference these days with fuel in the $3.25 to $4.75 range...

Lets use the following example:

9 hour flight, landing with reserves (3,000 lbs for 900EX and 4,000 lbs for G-450) that would mean each burned 18,000 lbs and 25,500 lbs respectively for the same trip.

25,500 - 18,000 = 7,500 lbs difference / 9 hours = 833.3 lbs per hour more burned in the G-450.

833.3 lbs / 6.67 = 125.0 gallons * $3.25 = $406.25 more per hour just in fuel
if fuel is $3.75 / gal then it is $468.75 per hour in fuel cost.

This would equate in an additional trip cost of $3,656.25 for this one 9 hour leg (at $3.25 per gallon, $4,218.75 with fuel at $3.75/gal))... In addition, Internationally, most landing and handling fees are based on weight, and seeing as the G-450 is "51% larger" the fees would be larger too...

Sometimes bigger isn't always better!

 

[GVFlyer]

These numbers look pretty old... What fuel price was used to generate these figures? I would bet there is a larger difference these days with fuel in the $3.25 to $4.75 range...

Lets use the following example:

9 hour flight, landing with reserves (3,000 lbs for 900EX and 4,000 lbs for G-450) that would mean each burned 18,000 lbs and 25,500 lbs respectively for the same trip.

25,500 - 18,000 = 7,500 lbs difference / 9 hours = 833.3 lbs per hour more burned in the G-450.

833.3 lbs / 6.67 = 125.0 gallons * $3.25 = $406.25 more per hour just in fuel
if fuel is $3.75 / gal then it is $468.75 per hour in fuel cost.

This would equate in an additional trip cost of $3,656.25 for this one 9 hour leg (at $3.25 per gallon, $4,218.75 with fuel at $3.75/gal))...

The Direct Operating Costs are from the Fall 2004 Conklin and DeDecker. The fuel cost used is $2.72 a gallon, up from $2.52 in the Spring edition. DOC's also include maintenance labor ($79 / hour), parts, engine reserves and miscellaneous flight expenses.

I think $2.72 is probably a good domestic figure. It's over 30 cents a gallon more than we pay at home plate and is representative of our AVfuel and MultiService contract fuel prices.

Other than the fact that it takes a G450 nine and a half hours to run through 25,500 pounds of fuel (at 9 hours with an 1800 lb payload fuel burn would be 24,100) and we use 6.7 pounds per US gallon to determine fuel capacity - your numbers look right on and would be correct at those fuel prices with the corrected fuel burn for the G450.

In addition, Internationally, most landing and handling fees are based on weight, and seeing as the G-450 is "51% larger" the fees would be larger too...

At least as far as Signature is concerned, the Falcon 900EX and the G450 are considered to be "Heavy Jets" and pay the same landing fees. The G550 is a "Super Heavy Jet" and pays more.

Sometimes bigger isn't always better!

That's something you could only expect us guys to believe.


GV

 

[bigD]

How are you calculating the difference in size? Gross weight? Seems to me that it'd make more sense to consider the interior.

Cabin volume for the 900EX and the G450 is 1254 and 1525 square feet respectively. Eyeballing these numbers, that looks like a 20% difference or so.

 

[2000flyer]

The short answer is:

All GV/G550's have 120 VG's. GV

Yep, there is something you'll NEVER see on a Falcon

2000Flyer

 

[bigD]

Now, now 2000flyer - I'm sure designing a wing is hard work. Getting it right the first time without using an aerodynamic crutch - or rather, 120 aerodynamic crutches - is not easy to do!

 

[G100driver]

Yep, there is something you'll NEVER see on a Falcon

2000Flyer

.... but what if you are over the North Atlantic and you loose 2 of you 3 engine driven hyd pumps and both of you gererators fail and you cannot get you APU to light .... AND THE FLIGHT ATTENDENT IS OUT OF COFFEE!!!

 

[banned username 2]

The Direct Operating Costs are from the Fall 2004 Conklin and DeDecker. The fuel cost used is $2.72 a gallon, up from $2.52 in the Spring edition. DOC's also include maintenance labor ($79 / hour), parts, engine reserves and miscellaneous flight expenses.

I think $2.72 is probably a good domestic figure.

Wow, I don't remember the last time I got fuel that cheap domestically ($2.72/gal)... We are paying over $3.25 at home and typically that or more on the road... We use contract fuel when possible, but a lot of the places we go don't offer that...

The price of fuel is rediculous, hope to see it drop in the coming months!

 

[GVFlyer]

How are you calculating the difference in size? Gross weight?

Yes, in that that is how everything else in aviation is classifed - from FAI records, to crew requirements, to certification requirements, to separation minima, but the cabin is 22% larger, the baggage area 33% larger, the fuselage is 35% longer, and the wings are 23% longer; pick one you like and go with it.

Now, now 2000flyer - I'm sure designing a wing is hard work. Getting it right the first time without using an aerodynamic crutch - or rather, 120 aerodynamic crutches - is not easy to do!

Your alternatives are to use a parasitic boundary layer control device, or to reduce Mmo and accept earlier boundary layer separation in maneuvering flight none of which is consistent with Gulfstream's design philosophy which is performance based and aimed to provide high degrees of controlability at high angles of attack and in maneuvering flight. It works - the GV has been out to M 1.07 during certification and holds the T-category altitude record by carrying 1000 kg to 55,066 feet. It also holds the time to climb records for 3000 meters, 6000 meters, 9,000 meters, 12,000 meters and 15,000 meters for payloads of both 1000 and 2000 kg as well as over 60 other records.

When Gulfstream employs the Sub-Boundary Layer Votex Generators it will be the first non-fighter jet to use this technology.

bigD you repeatedly take information that I generously provide you in response to your questions, twist it and use it against me - I'm beginning to suspect that I was married to you at one time.

GV

 

[bigD]

bigD you repeatedly take information that I generously provide you in response to your questions, twist it and use it against me - I'm beginning to suspect that I was married to you at one time.

GV

LMAO! Touche! I hope you realize it's all in good fun. In all seriousness, I've likely learned more about the Gulfstream from your posts than I could have anywhere else, and it's much appreciated.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

When Gulfstream employs the Sub-Boundary Layer Votex Generators it will be the first non-fighter jet to use this technology.



GV

Okay my aircraft experience is in the Sub-sonic range(not that a sub-sonic aircraft doesn't posess a boundary layer) but if you don't mind, explain sub-boundary VG.

 

[banned username 2]

bigD you repeatedly take information that I generously provide you in response to your questions, twist it and use it against me - I'm beginning to suspect that I was married to you at one time.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BigD is a good guy, he's just "funnin' with ya"... GV, as always your posts are very articulate, informative and even sometimes entertaining!

 

[HMR]

Just taking a break from my parasitic boundary layer control device calculations and it occured to me: Uncle Sparky, you forgot to log out of the computer at Garrett earlier today. Don't worry, I resisted the urge to post a thread on BBQ sucks, PFT is great, requesting info for the Gay Pilots Assoc, etc. and just quietly logged you out.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Just taking a break from my parasitic boundary layer control device calculations and it occured to me: Uncle Sparky, you forgot to log out of the computer at Garrett earlier today. Don't worry, I resisted the urge to post a thread on BBQ sucks, PFT is great, requesting info for the Gay Pilots Assoc, etc. and just quietly logged you out.

Geez.....that's scary! The last time I was at Garrett was two weeks ago!! My earlier post on this thread wasn't really my post. .......just assumed one of the other guys in my office was too lazy to log in himself. Well now that the Garrett computer has memorized my password, I guess I can expect posts on the "Gay Pilots Ass." site etc etc....
Probably a good reason not to use your real name on your Avatar!