"Fair" treatment for "experienced" pilots comes home to roost?

[Jonny Sacko]

I'll put 10 that this Undaunted moron lives in a 1 bedroom apartment on the approach to 4 in ORD, or similar in another UAL city. His 3rd wife left him, saying he's too arrogant, and self centered. He said "Your Crazy", the F/A's LOVED me! Ya, sure they did. It's all about you and your about you. Keep kicking OLD man! You make me laugh. "I wear my uniform, because I AM RESPECTED". But you've been retired for over a year. So what, I'M RESPECTED DAMN YOU!

 

[eaglesview]

Everyone calm down!!!

ALPA National will fight hard to prevent this from happening. They fought hard to stop age 65 and they will fight hard to stop this lawsuit.

I have all the confidence in the world in our "leadership".

ALPA national?? Oh there's some good news!!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLfmc7Z8bPM

I lol'ed @ 19 secs...........

 

[eaglesview]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLfmc7Z8bPM

I lol'ed @ 19 secs...........

perfect!

 

[JohnDoe]

You and your group wanted your senior colleagues out (fired) just so you could move up.

You mean just like the way you moved up the entire time you were at your carrier??

You benefitted from the rule your entire career, now it's ok for it to be changed......

Hello, pot? The kettle is calling.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

So I guess you are going to just retire at 60? No, the truth is you will want work beyond age 60 because there is just no reason to retire unless you must. So while you call me greedy when I, in fact, retired at age 60, it is you who will prove to be greedy. And how about the current pilots who are flying past age 60, are they greedy too, and "unofficial scabs" as you suggest? They are just trying to earn a living when the “Union” caved in and gave away their retirements.

I would like to retire at 55. Probably btw 55-60 now due to the decrease in earnings due to your generation. I can assure you that I won't want to work past 60 and spend more time away from my wife, kids, grandkids etc. Ok maybe the wife:laugh: My guess is you lived like the stereotypical airline pilot. Big house, vacation condo, an airplane or two, a boat, couple of ex wives, probably a couple of kids with each, with the younger wife you married in your mid 40s because she was more fun and could keep up with you. Then you had the 2nd round of children and she was just as boring as wife 1. Am I close?



I, and many others, would have liked to have had the opportunity to work past age 60, and that should have been our right and choice, not a decision made by others. You and your group wanted your senior colleagues out (fired) just so you could move up. That is what is sick about this and the so called "Union." What “Union” in the world tries to get one section of their membership fired so another can move up? None but ALPA and APA.
You and your generation want the choice for yourselves. What are you willing to do for the 1000s of pilots past 65? Are you willing to donate a large portion of your pay to a fund? Are you going to return any retirement already rcvd?
ALPA will die soon. Look at all the money they are losing. ALPA has just lost the money from US Air, Aloha and Frontier. 50 years ago they lost American as well as others along the way. Soon there will be more airlines who switch representation or just go out of business. When UAL goes that will be it for sure.

I do hope UAL lasts so you can be “greedy” too and keep working to support your family. I'm sure you want this too, right? And will that make you an unofficial scab too? Is name-calling for a person who chooses to work to support your his or her family really the right thing to do? When you keep working past age 60 I don't really plan to call you anything but a good taxpaying American citizen. What else should we call such a person: A greedy unofficial scab? I don't think so unless you really have a selfish agenda yourself. Is that it? That's what it looks like to me and many others too.

Again not planning on going past 65. My parents had me start saving for retirement by starting a IRA when I was 16, taught me to put away 30% of my gross as you can't count on anyone else for your financial security then yourselve. Somehow, I always found a way of saving, even at the commuter, probation, b scale, pay cuts, bankruptcy etc. Always have saved as I would not have a retirement as I watched my dad's defined benefit get sacked in the late 80s. You and your cohorts have lived well beyond your means for years,(all the while seeing Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, steel workers etc lose their DB plans) thinking it won't happen to me. You did not plan for your retirement and now you want to come back with seniority(that you gained btw from your seniors retiring at 60) Unbelievable.

 

[Mamma]

I do hope UAL lasts so you can be “greedy” too and keep working to support your family. I'm sure you want this too, right? And will that make you an unofficial scab too? Is name-calling for a person who chooses to work to support your his or her family really the right thing to do? When you keep working past age 60 I don't really plan to call you anything but a good taxpaying American citizen. What else should we call such a person: A greedy unofficial scab? I don't think so unless you really have a selfish agenda yourself. Is that it? That's what it looks like to me and many others too.

Sounds like poor prior planning. If I knew I had to retire from 121 flying at age 60 and had a family to support (seems kind of odd to be at 60 and supporting a family) I would have prepared. I would have lined up a corporate or foreign gig or a job outside aviation. Or even better, I would have taken those decades prior and SAVED for retirement. I would not stab the guys in the back below me or try to reverse a policy that I benefited from my entire career. The only way to make age 65 fair is to make it effective for all new hires on the date of implementation so everyone understands the "game" and playing field is level. UF, you are not entitled to anything and should be ashamed of yourself. I am not 60 and I have a family to support...mortgage, college and the such. This age 65 nonsense is really making it hard considering how pay sucks right now for FOs across the board. I understand you had a difficult career and it was not towards the end that you finally got the Hawaii layovers, but you knew the rules and should have prepared better.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

My guess is you lived like the stereotypical airline pilot. Big house, vacation condo, an airplane or two, a boat, couple of ex wives, probably a couple of kids with each, with the younger wife you married in your mid 40s because she was more fun and could keep up with you. Then you had the 2nd round of children and she was just as boring as wife 1. Am I close?

This is really funny. My personal life: One wife, one house, three children (youngest now age-17). No boats or girlfriends. Had an airplane to teach my middle kid to fly.

My career: One strike, two long furloughs, ESOP money lost, stolen pension in 11th hour. Yea, I guess you're right, I had it made.

And your part about how you plan to retire early, that's really funny. It just won't happen unless you get sick or something like that, or unless you have a horrible commute making life a living hell. But isn't that you're doing then. The point is you'll have a choice.

 

[zonker]

This is really funny. One wife, one house, three children (youngest now age-17). No boats or girlfriends. Had an airplane to teach my middle kid to fly.

My career: One strike, two long furloughs, ESOP money lost, stolen pension in 11th hour. Yea, I guess you're right, I had it made.

And your part about how you plans to retire early, that's really funny. It just won't happen unless you get sick or something like that, or unless you have a horrible commute making life a living hell. But isn't that you're doing then. The point is you'll have a choice.

We didn't want the choice. All we ever wanted was the exact same opportunity you got.

Worst generation ever.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Interesting....

Everyone looks out for himself.. which is how this country, culture and economy work.

Suddenly a group, Age65 guys "look out for themselves" and the harmed group, Age 60 is pissed caused Age 65 looked out for themselves over Age 60. But I don't see the Age 60 guys looking out for Age 65 guys.

 

[Mamma]

Interesting....

Everyone looks out for himself.. which is how this country, culture and economy work.

Suddenly a group, Age65 guys "look out for themselves" and the harmed group, Age 60 is pissed caused Age 65 looked out for themselves over Age 60. But I don't see the Age 60 guys looking out for Age 65 guys.

There is a difference in HOW people look out for themselves. Some work hard and plan accordingly. Some take shortcuts and cheat. Some stab others in the back because all they care about is themselves. Some do illegal things and go to jail. Some actually care about others and consider the ramifications of their actions before they proceed. There is a huge difference in how people look out for themselves and that is the distinction here. And I think you meant to say "I don't see the Age 65 guys looking out for anyone but themselves." The proof was UF saying that this is about money and getting 3000 pilots each $1 million for something they do not deserve.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Can anyone argue against justice?

It's mostly all about money!

So if ALPA, APA, and the DOT/FAA have to pay for their wrongdoing, why shouldn't they?

There are about 3,000 pilots affected who will be expecting about $1,000,000 each.

OK, I understand you are taking a Devil's advocate position here.

But I can argue against "justice" and against the Plaintiff's own best interests.

First, the DOT/FAA are protected by sovereign immunity. The US taxpayers are not going to pay $3,000,000,000.00 unless you can prove a deliberate government conspiracy to harm you and prove your damages. If you could sue the government, how many would line up to sue the armed service branches for allowing their kids to get killed? There are reasons for judicial protections afforded our nation.

Second, ALPA and the APA do not even have your attorney's fees on a three billion dollar award. You will discover through your litigation that ALPA does not have the cash to pay a handful of your plaintiffs and what money does exist is offshore, tied up un AFL-CIO affiliated insurance equities. (if there was an upside to prior DFR litigation, it is that the unions got good at making themselves judgement proof)

This is an interesting legal question and probably will get your Counsel face time in front of the Supreme Court, which is a lawyer's way of becoming living legend. Your lawyer probably also has you and your buddies paying his current fees and costs, plus contingency in the event that a dollar ever gets paid.

So, are you going to maintain a First Class medical while your case is on appeal? At a minimum this will take four years to work it's way through the Courts.

The only upside I see, is for your Counsel.

My humble advice is to save the money spent on attorneys and get a fun 135 job that allows you to enjoy retirement without the last chapter of your life being a war you can't win.

 

[atrdriver]

But I don't see the Age 60 guys looking out for Age 65 guys.

No, the age 60 guys are upset that the age 65 guys benefited from the rule their entire careers with no problems, but when their turn came threw a fit can cried how unfair it wall was. This was not a matter of the age 65 guys not looking out for the age 60 guys, it is a matter of them being selfish and petty. It is not now, nor was it ever the job of the age 60 guys to look out for the age 65 guys. They knew the rules of the game when it started.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

My humble advice is to save the money spent on attorneys and get a fun 135 job that allows you to enjoy retirement without the last chapter of your life being a war you can't win.

I'm not really looking for a Part 135 job. I'm doing something that is OK. And really, I don't think that anyone will ever receive much of anything for the legal actions. It is possible to be reinstated somehow in airline work, but by the time that would happen we'll all be over age 65. But who knows, anything is possible.

Thanks for your reasonable and thoughtfull reply.

 

[Superpilot92]

AGE 60 was a KNOWN retirement age, shouldn't have been a surprise. You old guys enjoyed the retirements at 60 your whole careers but know want it changed because it benefited you now. Get lost and go enjoy your "retirement".
:uzi:Over 60 pilots uke:

 

[PlaneDrvr]

OK, I understand you are taking a Devil's advocate position here.

But I can argue against "justice" and against the Plaintiff's own best interests.

First, the DOT/FAA are protected by sovereign immunity. The US taxpayers are not going to pay $3,000,000,000.00 unless you can prove a deliberate government conspiracy to harm you and prove your damages. If you could sue the government, how many would line up to sue the armed service branches for allowing their kids to get killed? There are reasons for judicial protections afforded our nation.

Second, ALPA and the APA do not even have your attorney's fees on a three billion dollar award. You will discover through your litigation that ALPA does not have the cash to pay a handful of your plaintiffs and what money does exist is offshore, tied up un AFL-CIO affiliated insurance equities. (if there was an upside to prior DFR litigation, it is that the unions got good at making themselves judgement proof)

This is an interesting legal question and probably will get your Counsel face time in front of the Supreme Court, which is a lawyer's way of becoming living legend. Your lawyer probably also has you and your buddies paying his current fees and costs, plus contingency in the event that a dollar ever gets paid.

So, are you going to maintain a First Class medical while your case is on appeal? At a minimum this will take four years to work it's way through the Courts.

The only upside I see, is for your Counsel.

My humble advice is to save the money spent on attorneys and get a fun 135 job that allows you to enjoy retirement without the last chapter of your life being a war you can't win.

Fins,

You have a good understand of the law; maybe you can answer the question that I posed to this guy earlier on this thread.

The only way that I see that these guys can have a 'standing' to sue or get to court, is to 'challenge' the new law itself as being 'discriminatory.' And, in going so, if they are successful, and a Judge finds as such, a Federal Court Judge would have no choice but to 'strike down' the law. And, as you mentioned, would go to appeal and through the court system, but the end result, if successful would be the new law being thrown out, and would revert back to the previous/old law, (age 60).

Isn't that a likely possibility??

Unless they are merely just trying to go after alpa, apa, in a DFR suit; which DFR suits are very difficult to prove. And if they were over '60' at the time, were not an active/current member of alpa and would make a DFR suit even more difficult??

For what its worth.

PD

P.S. Personally, I do hope they are successful, as I said, the end result may in fact mean the new law will be 'overturned' and we are back to 'age 60'!!

 

[Fubijaakr]

BTW, F9 is not an ALPA carrier.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The only way that I see that these guys can have a 'standing' to sue or get to court, is to 'challenge' the new law itself as being 'discriminatory.' And, in going so, if they are successful, and a Judge finds as such, a Federal Court Judge would have no choice but to 'strike down' the law. And, as you mentioned, would go to appeal and through the court system, but the end result, if successful would be the new law being thrown out, and would revert back to the previous/old law, (age 60).

Isn't that a likely possibility??

My guess no. It is more likely that a restrictive provision of the law would be struck down rather than the entire Act.

You are right they would bring the case under an allegation that the Act was in violation of the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause.

I have not seen what form this case is going to take... it will be interesting.

 

[ivauir]

Justice in this case will come forward in the courts.

Amazing. This geezers enjoyed the golden age of airline employment, whine their way into 5 more years of keeping the next generation down and then claim "justice" ... GMAFB

 

[CopilotDoug]

This is really funny. My personal life: One wife, one house, three children (youngest now age-17). No boats or girlfriends. Had an airplane to teach my middle kid to fly.

My career: One strike, two long furloughs, ESOP money lost, stolen pension in 11th hour. Yea, I guess you're right, I had it made.

And your part about how you plan to retire early, that's really funny. It just won't happen unless you get sick or something like that, or unless you have a horrible commute making life a living hell. But isn't that you're doing then. The point is you'll have a choice.

You won't win with this crowd, Undaunted. The senior guys may be from "Generation ME" but there is a strong representation on here from the "Entitlement Generation"

Apparently, this is putting a kink into alot of 'best laid plans'