Fair Seniority Integration Concept, your ideas requested

[Stifler's Mom]

Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Style.

Everybody meet up in either MSP or ATL, lock yourselves in a hangar, and go at it. Last guy standing is Seniority #1, First guy to get his ass kicked (Probably General Lee ) is the last guy on the seniority list.

 

[www.]

Looks like something that would make many happy.

NA...you have to put the ASA pilots on top. There you go!

We're keeping your seat warm for you too.

 

[CFI2766]

• • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)

This is the key point. That being said, how do you propose to make this number?

 

[pipe]

Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Style.

Everybody meet up in either MSP or ATL, lock yourselves in a hangar, and go at it. Last guy standing is Seniority #1, First guy to get his ass kicked (Probably General Lee ) is the last guy on the seniority list.

Post of the month, idea of the year. I love it.

PIPE

 

[Meiguy]

• • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)

This is the key point. That being said, how do you propose to make this number?

Good point..and thats probably where people would argue, but if you are able to keep your relative seniority at your respective airline then it wouldn't be as big of an issue. It obviously would for new planes, but at least someone could move up the ladder on planes already on property without the risk of the other coming in on top of them regardless of the second seniority number. It gives options to those that feel they got screwed on the second seniority number.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Your pipeline patrol pilot won't get hired as he has no experience to fly a 777. Just as a kid clerking on The Exchange floor won't be a Market Maker on Wall Street.

The industry will level itself off and when an airline screws it's pilots, they can go elsewhere without worrying about taking a 70% pay cut.

Grandfather the pilots today and start this system next month. In 10 years this will be a totally different industry and you'll almost be able to consider our careers as "professional."


-NYB

That's why I said 20 years ago. That same pilot could then go to a regional (have you seen some of the regional hiring mins lately?) where he would instantly become an RJ Captain with zero turbine experience according to your hypothetical. Then, getting 1000 PIC turbine in one year or so, would meet the mins and if he was well connected he could get on with a major. Now he uses his 25 years of "seniority" to outbid everyone. Like I said, that is the dumbest idea ever and will NEVER happen.

Even if you made it military/121/union seniority its still not fair. It matters where you get hired. Luck always plays a part, but many people work very hard to get hired at particular airlines because they believe in them and many times that pays off big time. Sometimes it does not. But if you choose wisely, and with some luck, there is no way you are going to let someone waltz into your airline that you've been working at for 25 years and jump ahead of you because they spent a total of 26 years wherever else.

Thankfully we have zero chance of an idea like yours ever coming to fruition.

 

[~~~^~~~]

• • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)

This is the key point. That being said, how do you propose to make this number?

You are correct, this is the hard part of the plan. Nothing is perfect.

In my view, a ratio formula, with emphasis given to current company seniority, would be most fair. No one should change relative seniority because they chose quality of life over a bigger jet.

The big benefit to our current negotiations is that the rest of the plan greatly reduces the pressure on developing this list - since folks are protected on aircraft up to the forseeable future, and then will use their system seniority to bid into new aircraft seats.

It is very good that folks on Flight Info can reach some consensus. If we can do it here, it can be done there. Anyone have any idea how to submit our humble little concept?

 

[IronCityBlue]

Good point..and thats probably where people would argue, but if you are able to keep your relative seniority at your respective airline then it wouldn't be as big of an issue. It obviously would for new planes, but at least someone could move up the ladder on planes already on property without the risk of the other coming in on top of them regardless of the second seniority number. It gives options to those that feel they got screwed on the second seniority number.

Until management starts shifting things around, then its a worse cat fight than USAir/AWA. Immagine parking MD-80's and DC'9's at different rates, and replacing them with 737NG's. Who is entitled to these? It would be a battle royal that this utopian model doesn't suggest how to handle. What if management starts allotting 787's to both carriers before the pilot groups are integrated? Etc.

That said, I would think whatever end result is reached, through agreement or arbitration, will look very similar to the original suggestion. Its the small details that make all the difference.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Iron City:

First, lets point out that there are opportunities in the NWA system. NWA is hiring at least 200 pilots this year even with a third of the DC-9 fleet getting parked in a very short time frame. Under this plan there are more than enough slots for displaced DC-9 drivers, although this year NWA is apparently not planning on displacements.

If and when the DC-9's are parked there would be some new order for jets. The new orders would be available for bid using system seniority. It is likely the new aircraft would be in the bases where they are backfilling the retiring aircraft.

In my view the NWA pilots benefit from keeping their relative system seniority (which is DOH weighted because all seniority is dependent on DOH to some degree) for bidding replacement jets and they keep their stove pipe available for their retirements.

The Delta pilots benefit by keeping their larger jets, warm weather bases, current international growth plans and future retirements.

Under this system walls come down when the pilot choses to bid out. If a pilot choses to stay, he is protected.

 

[Draginass]

You can bet that if/when it gets settled between the unions, Anderson is going to throw sand in the cogs and make significant changes that will intentionally pit the two employee groups against each other. If you can't see that coming, you're stupid.

This is a bad deal for both groups. Many many furloughs to come.

 

[pipe]

You are correct, this is the hard part of the plan. Nothing is perfect.

In my view, a ratio formula, with emphasis given to current company seniority, would be most fair. No one should change relative seniority because they chose quality of life over a bigger jet.

The big benefit to our current negotiations is that the rest of the plan greatly reduces the pressure on developing this list - since folks are protected on aircraft up to the forseeable future, and then will use their system seniority to bid into new aircraft seats.

It is very good that folks on Flight Info can reach some consensus. If we can do it here, it can be done there. Anyone have any idea how to submit our humble little concept?

I'm sure all the guys who started over with 10-15 years of ALPA time at TWA, EAL, Pan Am, and US Air will be excited about giving those years away when they are at the 2-3 year point with their CURRENT ALPA carrier. I have been in ALPA for over 10 years but only have 2 1/2 years at my CURRENT ALPA carrier. I really don't relish the idea of being behind a guy with three steady years at Trans States or Aloha Island Air.

NO THANKS.

PIPE

 

[Vastly Underemp]

So all you're really doing is creating infinite fences to existing domiciles/equipment, and not addressing the real (ie, new carrier) integration......

My proposal has always been:
relative seniority...if you're 50% in seat/domicile the day before the deal, you're still 50% in seat/domicile the day after the deal. A system seniority number can be established by comparing relative percentages, ie, the top 1% of seat/equipment are then arranged by either date of hire (10,000 guys and the most you could lose is 100 numbers systemwide) or you could ratio the order according to relative size of the two carriers in the case of very differently sized carriers, ie 2 for 1, etc. The only way this would not work would be if one company paid the same rate for all equipment. Categories would be superwide body (777, 747, 340, 330), wide body (767, 757), narrow body (737, a320, etc) and small (100 seaters). Temporary fences of equipment size not possessed by one carrier would solve quantum leaps in equipment, ie, Mr. A-320 suddenly bidding 747. And absolutely NO bump and flush. This way both sides can take advantage of the merger with new equipment and bases, and no one gets absolutely screwed. It would also work no matter what union you belonged to, or if you had no union at all.

This solves both the short term problems and the long term.

 

[General Lee]

Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Style.

Everybody meet up in either MSP or ATL, lock yourselves in a hangar, and go at it. Last guy standing is Seniority #1, First guy to get his ass kicked (Probably General Lee ) is the last guy on the seniority list.

Are you kidding me? I am 6'4" and 120 lbs. They call me "Learch." I would knock some serious heads together, and I bet I would atleast have 15 or 20 people behind me......total......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Stifler's Mom]

You Raaaaaaaaang?

Are you kidding me? I am 6'4" and 120 lbs. They call me "Learch." I would knock some serious heads together, and I bet I would atleast have 15 or 20 people behind me......total......


Bye Bye--General Lee

HA HA HA.... glad you hd a sense of humor. I was hoping you wouldn't take my post the wrong way.

6'4"??? You'd easily take out 15 to 20 people when you hit the canvas. Much like a giant redwood falling and taking any and everybody on its way down.

 

[General Lee]

I'm sure all the guys who started over with 10-15 years of ALPA time at TWA, EAL, Pan Am, and US Air will be excited about giving those years away when they are at the 2-3 year point with their CURRENT ALPA carrier. I have been in ALPA for over 10 years but only have 2 1/2 years at my CURRENT ALPA carrier. I really don't relish the idea of being behind a guy with three steady years at Trans States or Aloha Island Air.

NO THANKS.

PIPE

Let's look at what happened in the USAir and AWA arbitration. Did someone with 12 years of ALPA time do better than the 3 year guy at AWA? Nope. That arbitration gave the senior guys at USAir the top 550 spots because they had some INTL birds, and then it was integrated after that. If we went to arbitration, he would look at current planes, planes on order, planes that will be parked, and career expectations (which didn't help the USAir guys at all).

It will be interesting to see if it happens at all.


Bye Bye--General Lee