Fair Seniority Integration Concept, your ideas requested

[~~~^~~~]

Career Protection & Progression​

“Cross-Bidding” System ​

• • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
  • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet.
  • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)
  • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers.

• Methodology
  • The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.)
  • When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence.
  • “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
  • In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots.
  • 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
• Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.
  -----------------------------------------

Someone sent this concept to me for our use and I think it is the best balance I've seen for base and seat protections which allow for unrestricted growth. This would reduce some, but not all, the pressure on the Merger Committees to resolve the intractable issues of seniority integration.

I can think of possible tweaks, like whether or not aircraft on order are included in each airline's allocation, or are open for future bidding with the combined system number.

I think the pilots can stand behind the right plan for the benefit of their careers, their employers and the profession.

I'm asking for your consideration of this idea. If you think it has merit, send it to your Reps on both sides. Maybe this board can be used at the grass roots level for something constructive after all.

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​

 

[pipe]

I wish I could say that I thought of this.

Invert the larger carrier's seniority list. Staple them to the smaller carrier's list.

Well over half the pilots are thrilled.

No other system would result in this high of a percentage of happy pilots.

PIPE

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Looks like something that would make many happy.

 

[michael707767]

interesting idea. I like the concept.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

How about future aircraft not on property yet? Examples:
new a/c already ordered (ie: 737)
new a/c not yet ordered (ie: A320)
new a/c type ordered before merger (ie: 787)
new a/c type ordered after merger (ie: 797, 747-8, A-390)

 

[Meiguy]

Makes sense to me. That way you'll always have your benefits of each respective company that you signed up for. Your relative seniority would also be protected. They probably wouldn't want to deal with the headache of keeping up with 2 numbers and the potential complications that might arise. Overall I think it's a pretty fair shake.

 

[Schwanker]

Roberts Award anyone??

As I mentioned in the other thread, this sounds a lot like the 1986 merger at NWA. The result were basically 3 lists: RED + GREEN + BLUE = Fences

 

[fam62c]

Have both groups design an integration plan with some ground rules: no staple of one whole group at the bottom, no displacements from existing positions, etc. Submit both plans to an arbitrator chosen jointly by both parties and agree to "baseball-style" winner take all arbitration with one plan being selected.

Like it or not, this is fair. Each group has an equal chance and at least whatever plan gets chosen it's not designed by an arbitrator. Arbitration sucks but I don't see NWA and DAL unions getting this done by playing nice with each other.

If you could get a percentage of the senior NWA guys equal to the percentage of senior DAL guys who bailed out early to take a buyout and walk away it would be easier but that's never going to be workable in all probability, especially with age 65. The best solution is to just forget about the whole thing. This combination wil produce the airline equivalent of the Titanic.

 

[bmpilot2003]

OXYMORON. Something will ALWAYS feel they were not treated fairly.

 

[AirportBum]

At least this is a constructive idea, as opposed to straight DOH, Staple, etc.

I like the theory, and as you said with some tweaks it sounds better than anything else I've heard.

I think most of us would agree we're not looking to "take" the other groups seats. Most guys are just looking for the least painful, fairest integration possible.

It would be nice to see more of this dialogue, rather than the same old "the dc-9's are going away, and I don't wanna lose my 767er seat" or "they already got their seniority windfall when their senior pilots took the lump sum payout."

Regardless of which side you're on, you will naturally see things your own way.

I personally don't want to spend the rest of my career flying with guys who whine about getting "screwed back in '08". That won't be a pleasant working environment. Hopefully the guys at the helm are hammering out the fairest deal possible.

 

[B737 Guy]

Career Protection & Progression​

“Cross-Bidding” System ​

• • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
  • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet.
  • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)
  • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers.

• Methodology
  • The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.)
  • When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence.
  • “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
  • In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots.
  • 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
• Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.
  -----------------------------------------

Someone sent this concept to me for our use and I think it is the best balance I've seen for base and seat protections which allow for unrestricted growth. This would reduce some, but not all, the pressure on the Merger Committees to resolve the intractable issues of seniority integration.

I can think of possible tweaks, like whether or not aircraft on order are included in each airline's allocation, or are open for future bidding with the combined system number.

I think the pilots can stand behind the right plan for the benefit of their careers, their employers and the profession.

I'm asking for your consideration of this idea. If you think it has merit, send it to your Reps on both sides. Maybe this board can be used at the grass roots level for something constructive after all.

~~~^~~~​

Wow, very nice!
Something I think we can all agree upon!:beer:

 

[nyboilermaker]

National Seniority List.

The day you get your ATP Certificate is your date of hire for bidding purposes.

Go ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, DAPA, CRAPA, APA, run with it.


-NYB

 

[IronCityBlue]

National Seniority List.

The day you get your ATP Certificate is your date of hire for bidding purposes.

Go ALPA, IBT, SWAPA, DAPA, CRAPA, APA, run with it.


-NYB

That's quite possibly the dumbest idea in aviation history. So some guy with an ATP flying pipeline patroll for 20 years ago can go to a regional then a major and *poof!* is suddenly a 777 Captain? Never going to happen.

 

[Captain X]

Very interesting concept. Only problem I see is it might be too "out of the box" for the very simple minded old dog if ya' get my drift.

 

[nyboilermaker]

That's quite possibly the dumbest idea in aviation history. So some guy with an ATP flying pipeline patroll for 20 years ago can go to a regional then a major and *poof!* is suddenly a 777 Captain? Never going to happen.

Your pipeline patrol pilot won't get hired as he has no experience to fly a 777. Just as a kid clerking on The Exchange floor won't be a Market Maker on Wall Street.

The industry will level itself off and when an airline screws it's pilots, they can go elsewhere without worrying about taking a 70% pay cut.

Grandfather the pilots today and start this system next month. In 10 years this will be a totally different industry and you'll almost be able to consider our careers as "professional."


-NYB

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Style.

Everybody meet up in either MSP or ATL, lock yourselves in a hangar, and go at it. Last guy standing is Seniority #1, First guy to get his ass kicked (Probably General Lee ) is the last guy on the seniority list.

 

[www.]

Looks like something that would make many happy.

NA...you have to put the ASA pilots on top. There you go!

We're keeping your seat warm for you too.

 

[CFI2766]

• • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)

This is the key point. That being said, how do you propose to make this number?

 

[pipe]

Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Style.

Everybody meet up in either MSP or ATL, lock yourselves in a hangar, and go at it. Last guy standing is Seniority #1, First guy to get his ass kicked (Probably General Lee ) is the last guy on the seniority list.

Post of the month, idea of the year. I love it.

PIPE

 

[Meiguy]

• • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (“W2”, D.O.H., etc.)

This is the key point. That being said, how do you propose to make this number?

Good point..and thats probably where people would argue, but if you are able to keep your relative seniority at your respective airline then it wouldn't be as big of an issue. It obviously would for new planes, but at least someone could move up the ladder on planes already on property without the risk of the other coming in on top of them regardless of the second seniority number. It gives options to those that feel they got screwed on the second seniority number.