Fair Integration Now!!

FlyinGuy

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Dear pilot brethren,
Let's not stand by and let the F9 pilots think that they can come into the RAH fold and not allow fair integration. They are not above the law. They will be one company now and we need to stand up and help the RAH pilots. There are laws in this country and just because you are bigger and fly larger airplanes does not mean that you can just walk over our fellow pilots. When these lists are combined there needs to be a complete and fair top to bottom integration!
 

b82rez

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Let it go brother. WN lost. Move on with your life
 

tathagatha

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Let it go brother. WN lost. Move on with your life

Your speaking of round 1. the message that you replied to is round 2(ding!). This round has nothing to do with SWA other than SWA setting the standard by which all other F9/RAH/Midwest SLI's will be graded on the scale of more or less evil.

GL,

T
 

Minimaniac

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Dear pilot brethren,
Let's not stand by and let the F9 pilots think that they can come into the RAH fold and not allow fair integration. They are not above the law. They will be one company now and we need to stand up and help the RAH pilots. There are laws in this country and just because you are bigger and fly larger airplanes does not mean that you can just walk over our fellow pilots. When these lists are combined there needs to be a complete and fair top to bottom integration!
Frontier flies larger planes, but they are not bigger. F9 is 1/3 the size of RAH...(insert RAH paycheck quip here).

There will be a fair (yet disagreeable) integration. If the pilot groups don't see to that, the courts will.

While RAH pilots do not get much support, and your gesture is appreciated, I don't think anyone has walked all over anyone else in any of the RAH integrations yet. Please give everyone involved a chance to prove their ability to come to a reasonable solution before labeling one side or the other as hostile, uncooperative, and/or unreasonable. No integration proposals have even been submitted (publicly), so there is no reason to criticize any pilot group in this mess yet. Those who vent their feelings on this board, myself included, are not on the negotiating committees, and therefore do NOT represent the feelings and intent of the unions.
 

Ralph Cramden

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No dog in this hunt, but have been through three SLI mergers.

F9 guys need to realize they have been bought. The other outcomes were unemployment by Ch 7 or furlough by WN.

OTOH, there is a lot of precedence in SLI arbitration concerning "career expectations". It will be a real uphill fight for guys hired to fly for an RJ company doing paid lift to argue they expected to be flying their own brand in narrow body equipment.

I've flown both, and the bus is easier to fly, but that's not the point. What the top job at your company was when you were hired will be the litmus test the arbitrator will use.

Add in the little fact your management will be telling you they won't pay for any seat swapping or sport bidding, and the outcome is pretty clear.

I'm seeing a long fence, with longevity driving the bidding for any new seats resulting from expansion. And don't forget the Midwest guys, they deserve a seat as well.

Good luck to both sides. If everybody feels equally screwed, it was a fair deal...
 
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Monster Buck

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All F9 and All Midwest pilots should be integrated by ratio with the RAH pilots taped to the bottom and fenced from flying anything but their rj's.
 

BUDDHA145

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Dear pilot brethren,
Let's not stand by and let the F9 pilots think that they can come into the RAH fold and not allow fair integration. They are not above the law. They will be one company now and we need to stand up and help the RAH pilots. There are laws in this country and just because you are bigger and fly larger airplanes does not mean that you can just walk over our fellow pilots. When these lists are combined there needs to be a complete and fair top to bottom integration!
Flame bait!!! men you really need to find your dildo!!!!

PS: sorry you lost it.
 

FNG320

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Dear pilot brethren,
Let's not stand by and let the F9 pilots think that they can come into the RAH fold and not allow fair integration. They are not above the law. They will be one company now and we need to stand up and help the RAH pilots. There are laws in this country and just because you are bigger and fly larger airplanes does not mean that you can just walk over our fellow pilots. When these lists are combined there needs to be a complete and fair top to bottom integration!

You are right. However, Frontier pilots should not be thrown under the bus (sts) so that some RJ pilots can obtain a significant gain at their expense. A pure percentage integration of this type is not fair in this merger.

The new, but untested federal law which was brought about by the AA/TWA meger is very similar to the ALPA merger policy that no pilot group obtains an advantage or windfall due to the merger. Now, if you follow the DAL/NWA and AWA/USAir Nicolia award, there was separation on the integration of wide vs narrow body aircraft. This parallels Frontier/Republic as they are narrow body and RJ. If you follow the previous mentioned integrations and follow it to the next step you get three types of aircraft (four if you want to separate large RJ vs Small RJ) and five if you split out the Dash8s This gives you:

Wide body (none)
Narrow body (A320)
Large RJ (E170/175)
Small RJ (E140/145/CRJ200)
Truboprop

Thus the initial integration of Captains should be:

Wide body senior (none)
Narrow body mid seniority (frontier Airbus')
Large RJ (Republic E170/175 pilots)
Small RJ (Republic E140/145/CRJ200)
Turboprop (Frontier Q400 Dash8)

This results that among captains, all Frontier Captains are senior. The real nut cutting occurs with the integration of Frontier FOs, RJ Captains and the RJ FOs (and yes, all Republic aircraft are currently classified as RJ (E170/175/145/140 and CRJ200). How do you integrate these groups is a concern. Also, there need to be 5 to 10 year fences to protect each group from intrusion into the other's fleets. Each group may see some gains and losses, but true interations will not happen for 5 to 10 years. In addition, the Frontier FO should not be disenfranchised so that the RJ captains can displace Airbus FOs.

Merging companies of similar equipment is one thing, but when one company only flies RJs that is quite another. This can be an example of where "scope" hurts Republic pilots. E170/175 are all considered feeder/RJ aircraft thus do not count as narrow body equipment. As for future E190 aircraft, if/when they get them, they should be considered an narrow body, but Republic does not have any on the date of purchase, thus they do not count in the mix.

Just my opinion......

FNG
 
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FNG320

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No dog in this hunt, but have been through three SLI mergers.

F9 guys need to realize they have been bought. The other outcomes were unemployment by Ch 7 or furlough by WN.

OTOH, there is a lot of precedence in SLI arbitration concerning "career expectations". It will be a real uphill fight for guys hired to fly for an RJ company doing paid lift to argue they expected to be flying their own brand in narrow body equipment.

I've flown both, and the bus is easier to fly, but that's not the point. What the top job at your company was when you were hired will be the litmus test the arbitrator will use.

Add in the little fact your management will be telling you they won't pay for any seat swapping or sport bidding, and the outcome is pretty clear.

I'm seeing a long fence, with longevity driving the bidding for any new seats resulting from expansion. And don't forget the Midwest guys, they deserve a seat as well.

Good luck to both sides. If everybody feels equally screwed, it was a fair deal...
Your first assumption is wrong. Frontier was no where close to liquidations. You need to look at the reasons for the BK. First, just priot to the BK, Frontier was losing money yes, but only a few million. The main reason for the BK was two fold. The had low cash reserves, and when the company managing thier credit card transactions decided to withhold a significiant percentage of their cash from advanced ticket sales, they were left with insufficient cash to sustain operations. Thus the declared BK to fix this problem. Thus Republic's purchase was not "saving the company", it was just a "good deal". This is different that AWA/USAir where USAir was on the verge of liquidations following two BKs in 3 years.

For how the integrations should be done, ref my earlier post. As for Midwest they should be integrated the same way. However, based on date of each transaction, there needs to be a merger of Midwest and Republic pilots, then a second round with the Frontier and Republic (using new Republic list. This would result in:

Frontier and Midwest Captains (percentage integration)
Republic Large RJ Captains
Republic Small RJ Captains
Frontier Turboprop Captians

This integration keeps everyone "career expectations about the same. Integrations of furloughed pilots and FOs would be the hard part. I would also expect some 5-10 year fences also.

Totally agree. IF all groups hate the deal, it is most likely as fair as you can get. Remember, the only guy who feels he got a good deal is the #1 guy.

Just my opinion.......

FNG
 

FSIGRAD

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Frontier and Midwest Captains (percentage integration)
Republic Large RJ Captains
Republic Small RJ Captains
Frontier Turboprop Captians

Ok Midwest is not bringing any airplanes. F9 and YX do a percentage intergration where are the YX guys going to get their seats? 75 F9 Airbus captains are going to voluntier to downgrade? Already talk of Airbuses in Midwest paint coming soon.
 

FNG320

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Frontier and Midwest Captains (percentage integration)
Republic Large RJ Captains
Republic Small RJ Captains
Frontier Turboprop Captians

Ok Midwest is not bringing any airplanes. F9 and YX do a percentage intergration where are the YX guys going to get their seats? 75 F9 Airbus captains are going to voluntier to downgrade? Already talk of Airbuses in Midwest paint coming soon.

The first question you have to ask is "how many planes was Midwest operating at the on the day of purchase." That is how many planes they brought to the table. Regardless of what happend after that, that is the set point for integrations, regardless of what happened with them later. In addition, what is the status of the crews at date of purchase (set point). Just like the furlough issue or who was a CA vs FO. It is where they were on the day of purchase". If they were still active pilots (not furloughed) or active Captains (not displaced to FO seat) they integrate at the point that the date of sale occured. Just like the future E190 at Republic. There were none on property at the time of the sale, thus they do not count.

Anything less is too ambigous to work with. At some point you have to put a steak in the ground and say "here is the point we start with" regardless of what the trends in jobs/upgades/downgrades/displacements/active/furloughs.

Just my opinion.......

FNG
 

likeitis

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The first question you have to ask is "how many planes was Midwest operating at the on the day of purchase." That is how many planes they brought to the table. Regardless of what happend after that, that is the set point for integrations, regardless of what happened with them later. In addition, what is the status of the crews at date of purchase (set point). Just like the furlough issue or who was a CA vs FO. It is where they were on the day of purchase". If they were still active pilots (not furloughed) or active Captains (not displaced to FO seat) they integrate at the point that the date of sale occured. Just like the future E190 at Republic. There were none on property at the time of the sale, thus they do not count.

Anything less is too ambigous to work with. At some point you have to put a steak in the ground and say "here is the point we start with" regardless of what the trends in jobs/upgades/downgrades/displacements/active/furloughs.

Just my opinion.......

FNG
Agree but as more info is coming out there is more evidence that the Rev. has behind the dismanatling of Midwest since approx. June 2008. He has also just recently said he wants to return Midwest to look like the airline of June 2008 ASAP. This to me looks like a management move to affect the SLI to decrease their costs. If we as pilots can't see this and counter their moves it will set a standard for future mergers. This reeks of management sticky their fingers in a process that is by law to be determined by the unions.
 

Devil Dawg

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They wanted relative seniority with swa wouldn't that be appropriate here also? Let's face it any SLI is all about me. How can I gain from this even on your back. Sad but true state of human nature.
 

FNG320

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They wanted relative seniority with swa wouldn't that be appropriate here also? Let's face it any SLI is all about me. How can I gain from this even on your back. Sad but true state of human nature.
In the SWA/Frontier SLI, they were both narrow body aircraft and both major airlines. However, in the Republic/Frontier SLI, there are a lot of other and complicating factors (aircraft types, career expectations, upgrade times/expectations, pay scales, etc.) Like I have posted before DAL/NWA and AWA/USAir nicoli SLIs are viable models to follow.

Agreed, the number one concern is "Its all about me" for each pilot/pilot group. The arbitrator/mediator will have fun with this one......

Just my opinion.......

FNG
 
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