Factual Reasons for Relative - SWA/ATN

[WOWIdidntKnow]

What are the "Factual" reasons the SWA/ATN SLI should be done using relative seniority?

I've seen a lot of emotion, I'm wondering if this can be presented factually?

 

[BoilerUP]

With relative seniority, you end up at the same exact percentage (give or take a smidge) post-SLI as where you sat pre-SLI.

There really is no logical argument that any given side earns a windfall, with regards to seniority, when everyone is +/- 2% (or closer) of where they were on their list before integration.

Although there can be inequalities (much larger airline acquiring a much smaller airline, in which case relative and ratio can address it), I personally believe it is the most "fair".

 

[Cometman]

With relative seniority, you end up at the same exact percentage (give or take a smidge) post-SLI as where you sat pre-SLI.

There really is no logical argument that any given side earns a windfall, with regards to seniority, when everyone is +/- 2% (or closer) of where they were on their list before integration.

Although there can be inequalities (much larger airline acquiring a much smaller airline, in which case relative and ratio can address it), I personally believe it is the most "fair".

If you do that it is not relative. You cannot say relative and then change it and still call it relative. It is either one or the other.

 

[GuppyWN]

Anybody ever get a headache from beating your head against the wall?

Gup

 

[BoilerUP]

If you do that it is not relative. You cannot say relative and then change it and still call it relative. It is either one or the other.

What?

Ratios can still provide relative seniority...

 

[Cometman]

What?

Ratios can still provide relative seniority...

I guess if you subtract 4 from DOH you would call that DOH.

 

[SWA717]

Relative will not happen. I don't think it is fair and it wouldn't be in the best interests of our culture.

 

[BoilerUP]

Relative will not happen.

Probably accurate; I doubt even an arbitrator would rule for pure relative in this instance.

I suspect an arbitrated list would look a lot like all SWA pilots with DOH before the creation of AirTran on top, with some ratio below that. Given the FACTS of this particular situation, I don't believe such a ruling would be "unfair", though I'm sure plenty would scream that it is.

I guess if you subtract 4 from DOH you would call that DOH.

You are either too stupid or too myopic to see what I'm talking about. But since I'm bored in the hotel, I'll break the concept down for you:

APC shows SWA has 5887 pilots, AAI 1742, for a combined pilot group of 7629. I have no idea if those figures are accurate or not, but those numbers provide a ratio of 3.38 SWA pilots per AAI pilot. Since it is hard to integrate a percentage of pilot, let's say we use a 3 SWA pilots to every 1 AAI pilot ratio...a decision which slightly favors AAI pilots but is in-line with mathematical rounding rules.

Somebody at 30% of the SWA list is approx. #1766; the same percentage of seniority at AAI is approx #523. That makes 30% of the combined list to be #2289.

Given the fact that 1 in 4 pilots will be an AAI pilot, with the assumption that the 1 AAI pilot will be placed behind the 3 SWA pilots in the ratio, AAI pilot #523 will end up at #2092 with a 3:1 ratio. His relative seniority on the combined list is now 27.4%. SWA pilot #1766 would be at #2355, with his relative seniority 30.9%.

If you change the ratio to 4:1, with ever 5th pilot on the combined list an AAI pilot, the new position for AAI pilot #523 is #2615...relative seniority of 34.3% on the combined list. SWA pilot #1766 would be #2208, with his relative seniority 28.9%.

While not perfectly relative (has any SLI ever been?), neither of these ratios constitute a "windfall" of seniority advancement for either side.

While "fairness" is completely relative to one's perspective, it is difficult for anyone to reasonably argue that they have suffered undue hardship if they end up within a few percentage points post-SLI as where they were pre-SLI.

SWA has a great culture; I love being a passenger on your planes. Your agents & CSRs are the very best in the industry when it comes to customer service, and I understand why it is important to maintain that culture even in the face of M&A activity.

I believe this merger/acquisition/whatever can be a major long-term win for SWA management and both pilot groups...but both sides need to stop poisoning the well because all it is setting up is another East/West situation. The internet pecker measuring contest needs to stop, cooler heads need to prevail, and interest-based negotiation by all parties (looking at you, AAI ALPA) needs to start independent of mediation & arbitration proceedings.

But WTFDIK, I'm just a paying passenger...

 

[Empennage]

What are the "Factual" reasons the SWA/ATN SLI should be done using relative seniority?

I've seen a lot of emotion, I'm wondering if this can be presented factually?

Its the opposite of stapling and it is as fair and equitable.

 

[DougCorp-9]

You have to account for their(SWA) much higher attrition rate or it would not be fair.

Just saying.

 

[PCL_128]

Anybody ever get a headache from beating your head against the wall?

Yep, pretty much every time I read Flightinfo.

By the way, I haven't seen any AirTran pilots here advocating for straight relative seniority.

 

[boeing717]

Yep, pretty much every time I read Flightinfo.

By the way, I haven't seen any AirTran pilots here advocating for straight relative seniority.

Everybody was wondering where you were. I guess you will have to find a desk job when SWA takes over the training. They won't let you slide like they do now. I guess being involved with the union gives you some perks. Like passing a check ride when you cananot fly. Good luck. You derserve what you get.

 

[BlueBlood]

PCL is busy in his new communications job calling SWAPA and Southwest VPs liars. He doesn't have time to come here anymore. Being MEC Vice Chairman leaves you with a lot of time since most of your day is finding good places to eat and getting pizza for everyone. Since that job is gone he has to work and find new and inventive ways to spin ALPA's BS.

 

[DonVerita]

PCL is busy in his new communications job calling SWAPA and Southwest VPs liars. He doesn't have time to come here anymore. Being MEC Vice Chairman leaves you with a lot of time since most of your day is finding good places to eat and getting pizza for everyone. Since that job is gone he has to work and find new and inventive ways to spin ALPA's BS.

Wow. Are you one of those ALPA haters that just voted against representation at JetBlue?

Good luck defending yourself in a M/A situation with ZERO union protection.

 

[GuppyWN]

By the way, I haven't seen any AirTran pilots here advocating for straight relative seniority.

A mans got to know his limits.

Gup

 

[Lear70]

Anybody ever get a headache from beating your head against the wall?

Gup

That's why I stopped posting for a while. I just glaze over the first page or two of topics, see if there's anything new, then go do something more productive.

Boiler, I'm also highly surprised no one on here has proposed a clean ratio'd list similar to what you're stating. If you did that using the 3.38:1 ratio starting AFTER the Morris Air peeps as the proposed ISL did from SIA 1, that puts the top 1,645 SWA pilots at the top of the list (last one is DB then our #1 guy VG), then ratios that remaining 4,242 SWA pilots with all the AirTran pilots but does it at the higher COMBINED list ratio, rather than just the remaining lower ratio with the top SWA pilots removed from the calculation. There are only 1,687 pre-constructive notice AAI pilots on the list. That 3.38:1 ratio goes through AirTran pilot # 1,255 and staples the bottom 432 pilots, then puts post 9/27 pilots at the very bottom (not saying anything about fairness one way or another, just doing the math).

Obviously this solution leaves the top of the list solidly SWA pilots for a decade, but I don't know what that does for the rest of the list or where senior people at either company clump the top of the list at snapshots 15 and 20 years out... Not knowing how that works out for everyone, I'm just kicking it out there, since I haven't heard anyone else talking about it.

I put together a dynamic seniority list proposal and sent it to our NC last week just brainstorming on a trip. I'm told that except for one new idea, that had already been looked at before, SWA thought it could work, but SWAPA didn't like it. I'm wondering if dusting it off again might provide the "neutral" ground we need.

Wishing them luck in Dallas this week! Back to lurking. :beer:

 

[Andy]

By the way, I haven't seen any AirTran pilots here advocating for straight relative seniority.

Read these:

DOH would screw the majority of AirTran pilots.

A 1 for 1 blend or by relative seniority would be required to make this work.

Your windfall, if you need a windfall, is that we have orders for 50 aircraft for continued growth. Your orders are for replacements. So, many of you will be upgrading into airframes that were going to go to AirTran pilots. We are hiring right now, and were on track to hire up to 200 through 2011. we're in a growth mode, which benefits you, too.

Why do you need a windfall, anyway? What exactly are you giving up? With relative seniority and new airframes arriving, you're in a better position with us on board than you were before.

I pretty much stopped searching after those two. Except for this last one. It's hilarious. Please click on the post to read it in context:

Relative seniority.

You seem to suffer from amnesia. PCL, does someone need to write a checklist on using the search function?

 

[shootr]

The "neutral" ground we all need since you guys have more leverage, now?

 

[Lear70]

The "neutral" ground we all need since you guys have more leverage, now?

Nah, just the "neutral ground" I've been advocating for from the beginning. Something we can all live with in lieu of rouchambeauing each other for it.

I just want to get this behind us and move on with making a great company together. I'm still wearing my One Luv lanyard. I'm still treating our customers well and doing my job 100% (picked up a trip during IROPS to help the company out, sitting in BWI as the hurricane bears down on us), enjoying your crews when I commute to work, just being positive and letting the process work. I believe in the successful outcome and refuse to get angry or upset about the ups and downs of negotiations. Just not in my nature, and most of our pilots are pretty much the same.

About all any of us can do as a line pilot, no? :beer:

 

[Hamfighter]

I think you should staple Southwest. There's so many fewer Airtran pilots, they don't have a fair chance. Of course, all FO's should get immediate upgrades, too.