Factual Reasons for Relative - SWA/ATN

[Lear70]

Anybody ever get a headache from beating your head against the wall?

Gup

That's why I stopped posting for a while. I just glaze over the first page or two of topics, see if there's anything new, then go do something more productive.

Boiler, I'm also highly surprised no one on here has proposed a clean ratio'd list similar to what you're stating. If you did that using the 3.38:1 ratio starting AFTER the Morris Air peeps as the proposed ISL did from SIA 1, that puts the top 1,645 SWA pilots at the top of the list (last one is DB then our #1 guy VG), then ratios that remaining 4,242 SWA pilots with all the AirTran pilots but does it at the higher COMBINED list ratio, rather than just the remaining lower ratio with the top SWA pilots removed from the calculation. There are only 1,687 pre-constructive notice AAI pilots on the list. That 3.38:1 ratio goes through AirTran pilot # 1,255 and staples the bottom 432 pilots, then puts post 9/27 pilots at the very bottom (not saying anything about fairness one way or another, just doing the math).

Obviously this solution leaves the top of the list solidly SWA pilots for a decade, but I don't know what that does for the rest of the list or where senior people at either company clump the top of the list at snapshots 15 and 20 years out... Not knowing how that works out for everyone, I'm just kicking it out there, since I haven't heard anyone else talking about it.

I put together a dynamic seniority list proposal and sent it to our NC last week just brainstorming on a trip. I'm told that except for one new idea, that had already been looked at before, SWA thought it could work, but SWAPA didn't like it. I'm wondering if dusting it off again might provide the "neutral" ground we need.

Wishing them luck in Dallas this week! Back to lurking. :beer:

 

[Andy]

By the way, I haven't seen any AirTran pilots here advocating for straight relative seniority.

Read these:

DOH would screw the majority of AirTran pilots.

A 1 for 1 blend or by relative seniority would be required to make this work.

Your windfall, if you need a windfall, is that we have orders for 50 aircraft for continued growth. Your orders are for replacements. So, many of you will be upgrading into airframes that were going to go to AirTran pilots. We are hiring right now, and were on track to hire up to 200 through 2011. we're in a growth mode, which benefits you, too.

Why do you need a windfall, anyway? What exactly are you giving up? With relative seniority and new airframes arriving, you're in a better position with us on board than you were before.

I pretty much stopped searching after those two. Except for this last one. It's hilarious. Please click on the post to read it in context:

Relative seniority.

You seem to suffer from amnesia. PCL, does someone need to write a checklist on using the search function?

 

[shootr]

The "neutral" ground we all need since you guys have more leverage, now?

 

[Lear70]

The "neutral" ground we all need since you guys have more leverage, now?

Nah, just the "neutral ground" I've been advocating for from the beginning. Something we can all live with in lieu of rouchambeauing each other for it.

I just want to get this behind us and move on with making a great company together. I'm still wearing my One Luv lanyard. I'm still treating our customers well and doing my job 100% (picked up a trip during IROPS to help the company out, sitting in BWI as the hurricane bears down on us), enjoying your crews when I commute to work, just being positive and letting the process work. I believe in the successful outcome and refuse to get angry or upset about the ups and downs of negotiations. Just not in my nature, and most of our pilots are pretty much the same.

About all any of us can do as a line pilot, no? :beer:

 

[Hamfighter]

I think you should staple Southwest. There's so many fewer Airtran pilots, they don't have a fair chance. Of course, all FO's should get immediate upgrades, too.

 

[GoodTimes]

...(not saying anything about fairness one way or another, just doing the math).



....Obviously this solution leaves the top of the list solidly SWA pilots for a decade, but I don't know what that does for the rest of the list or where senior people at either company clump the top of the list at snapshots 15 and 20 years out...



....might provide the "neutral" ground we need.



My head hurts when I read things like this. Lear, were you on earth last week?

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, your feathered option, how does that end up at a pilots retirement point? If you run the spreadsheet, you'll see that SL9 preserved everyones post merger endgame monetary position. Anything less and in 10-15 years, the AT pilots own the top of the list due to their inherent younger demographics (up wards of 10 years younger), and SWA guys take a huge loss in retirement income, to the tune of $100K plus.

Some will fall outside those norms (older AT FO's, older SWA FO's), but on average, SL9 fit the bill of no harm to SWA pilots. As for me, SL9 places me within 1% current position at end game, anything less would be unfair, inequitable, and cause harm.

 

[boeing717]

...(not saying anything about fairness one

My head hurts when I read things like this. Lear, were you on earth last week?[/QUOTE]

He was with his ALPA friends talking the agreement down. PCL and him are two of the people that talk down the agreement. At least PCL says in FI. Lear says one thing on FI and then another away from here. He is trying to keep friendly so if it happens he can say he likes it. He doesn't want to be like Ty, Karma and PCL.

 

[Lear70]

...(not saying anything about fairness one way or another, just doing the math).

....Obviously this solution leaves the top of the list solidly SWA pilots for a decade, but I don't know what that does for the rest of the list or where senior people at either company clump the top of the list at snapshots 15 and 20 years out...

....might provide the "neutral" ground we need.

My head hurts when I read things like this. Lear, were you on earth last week?

See... this is why I went into hiatus and why I'm going back there after this post. You are taking two completely different thoughts and combining them, which is the pure definition of "taking a statement out of context."

The "neutral" ground I referred to was in the last paragraph talking about a dynamic seniority list, not in reference to the ratio'd list that Boiler referred to and I simply did the math on. Don't mix the two, as they were two seperate seniority list ideas.

Score, I already said I haven't seen what that list looks like. I wish I had a full day with the MC to see what the computer spits out with scenarios like the above, but I don't. Like I said, I was just doing the math since no one on here had actually discussed that scenario in "real life" numbers. There was no intention of getting into a debate about it...

 

[Lear70]

My head hurts when I read things like this. Lear, were you on earth last week?

He was with his ALPA friends talking the agreement down. PCL and him are two of the people that talk down the agreement. At least PCL says in FI. Lear says one thing on FI and then another away from here. He is trying to keep friendly so if it happens he can say he likes it. He doesn't want to be like Ty, Karma and PCL.

Last week I was actually home all week, thanks, Judas.

Contrary to your assertion, I already came on here after the agreement was voted down and said the seniority list was just too much to give up. I already said that we greatly appreciate the economic incentives GK offered, but the seniority list itself was just too much of a hit for our members to take. Myself included.

Doesn't mean I don't favor a negotiated solution, why don't you post what I put on our internal board about THAT last week (and got bashed for by many of our pilots)? Oh wait, that wouldn't fit your agenda.

So don't come on here thinking you're "outing" me. I talk more directly with our pilots, certainly, as likely many SWA pilots do between here and their own board, but I don't "say one thing on FI and then another away from here." If you'd like to discuss it further, why don't you contact me personally on our board, rather than hide behind anonymity here?

I didn't think so.

 

[terrehautesux]

Relative will not happen. I don't think it is fair and it wouldn't be in the best interests of our culture.

How do we threaten your "culture"?

 

[boeing717]

How do we threaten your "culture"?

I think he means you will not help it. With your group of ALPA members I also think you would not fit in there. Sorry, but facts are facts. Your group with some exceptions are misfits and that is why they do not want you.

 

[ASADFW7]

SWA threaten the cultus buying AAI.

 

[terrehautesux]

I think he means you will not help it. With your group of ALPA members I also think you would not fit in there. Sorry, but facts are facts. Your group with some exceptions are misfits and that is why they do not want you.

that's pretty funny.

 

[boeing717]

Last week I was actually home all week, thanks, Judas.

Contrary to your assertion, I already came on here after the agreement was voted down and said the seniority list was just too much to give up. I already said that we greatly appreciate the economic incentives GK offered, but the seniority list itself was just too much of a hit for our members to take. Myself included.

Doesn't mean I don't favor a negotiated solution, why don't you post what I put on our internal board about THAT last week (and got bashed for by many of our pilots)? Oh wait, that wouldn't fit your agenda.

So don't come on here thinking you're "outing" me. I talk more directly with our pilots, certainly, as likely many SWA pilots do between here and their own board, but I don't "say one thing on FI and then another away from here." If you'd like to discuss it further, why don't you contact me personally on our board, rather than hide behind anonymity here?

I didn't think so.

Since we are still on the same side of the yard it is better this way. However, I have said this too you before and if you knew who I was you would agree. So, keep trying to hide but remember, "you can take the animal out of the jungle but you cannot take the jungle out of the animal". Get it? You are what you are and people that know you realize that. Your record speaks for it self. Enjoy your time off the computer. However, you will be back soon because you cannot stay away.