Fact or fiction from NWA ALPA??

[737 Pylt]

Can anyone at NWA confirm that NWA ALPA is making statements to the press. DALPA has been quiet, leading me to believe these news articles are about as true as tanker clown is a real pilot!
NWA Redtail, fly4hire, Occam? Are you guys getting ANY feedback from your MEC?

737


Click here for link to article.

Delta-Northwest deal faces final hurdle

By Justin Baer in New York
Wednesday Feb 20 2008 12:05
Delta Air Lines (NYSE:DAL) ' bid to merge with rival Northwest Airlines (NASDAQ:NWAC) may stall if their pilots fail to reach an accord on how to rank their members' seniority once the companies combine.
While the two groups have reached an agreement with Delta and Northwest on a new $2bn labour contract, they will not sign off on the merger unless they find common ground on a seniority list, which helps determine how much pilots are paid and what planes they fly.
"Most of our economic and contractual obligations have been resolved," said Matt Coons, a spokesman for the Northwest pilots. "While we're enthusiastic, we also know a pilot's career is tied entirely to seniority ranking. Short-term economic benefits are not worth sacrificing the possibility of advancement."

 

[Diesel-9]

Read a few things from ominous sources to the press. (leaks?). Nothing form the MEC. Sounds like nice pay raises. 20-30% for DAL/NWA over 4 years. Sounds like seniority is FAR apart.

 

[737 Pylt]

Read a few things from un-named sources (leaks?). Nothing form the MEC. Sounds like nice pay raises. 20-30% for DAL/NWA over 4 years. Sounds like seniority is FAR apart.

Diesel:
The "un-named" sources always cracks me up, but in this case they are actually quoting a "name."
That's why I was curious as to anything "official?"

737

 

[Draginass]

Seniority IS $$$.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Can anyone at NWA confirm that NWA ALPA is making statements to the press. DALPA has been quiet, leading me to believe these news articles are about as true as tanker clown is a real pilot!
NWA Redtail, fly4hire, Occam? Are you guys getting ANY feedback from your MEC?

737

For a guy who has me on his ignore list...you sure do spend a lot of time worrying about me. I'm a pilot. I may fly less a year than you...but I make a good bit more. Sorry. The numbers don't lie.

 

[737 Pylt]

Can anyone at NWA confirm that NWA ALPA is making statements to the press. DALPA has been quiet, leading me to believe these news articles are about as true as tanker clown is a real pilot!
NWA Redtail, fly4hire, Occam? Are you guys getting ANY feedback from your MEC?

737

For a guy who has me on his ignore list...you sure do spend a lot of time worrying about me. I'm a pilot. I may fly less a year than you...but I make a good bit more. Sorry. The numbers don't lie.

Yes they do, so do you when you tell everyone you're a pilot, let alone a human being! This is a discussion amongst pilots, not coffee getters!
Back to the trailer park with you!

737

 

[Tanker Clown]

Good one man. I get it. You are saying that I fetch coffee for a colonel. OK. You bet. Ahhhh good one? Trailer park? Just by compareing W-2s, you are a lot closer to the trailer park...and I can assume that's not too uncommon in GA.

 

[737 Pylt]

Good one man. I get it. You are saying that I fetch coffee for a colonel. OK. You bet. Ahhhh good one? Trailer park? Just by compareing W-2s, you are a lot closer to the trailer park...and I can assume that's not too uncommon in GA.

I'll post this one here since you must have missed it.

Tanker Clown:
I'm sorry you have/had cancer. Most of the people I know after having a "killer disease" are some of the most positive and influential people that I know.
I don't hate you that much, just a little. I'm not sure why you feel you have to come on here and insult anything/everything about the airlines, Delta in particular. I'm sorry you didn't/can't get hired, but there's always the re-interview process. Go out and get a job at a regional, build up some quality flight time, and re apply!
For someone who beat cancer, you sure have turned out to be one on this forum!
Please, go look in the mirror, thank God for every day you now have to live and try to be positive! I'm not sure why you have so much vitrol, but its quite obvious you are hung up on certain things. As you say, face it, chase it, and erase it.

One more thing, if you're going to use DK as your avatar pic, at least have the common courtesy to show a pic of his hot wife!

737

 

[Turtle21]

Can anyone at NWA confirm that NWA ALPA is making statements to the press. DALPA has been quiet, leading me to believe these news articles are about as true as tanker clown is a real pilot!
NWA Redtail, fly4hire, Occam? Are you guys getting ANY feedback from your MEC?

737

For a guy who has me on his ignore list...you sure do spend a lot of time worrying about me. I'm a pilot. I may fly less a year than you...but I make a good bit more. Sorry. The numbers don't lie.

Hell, I have more T-37 instructor time than you have total time! We used to call guys like you "pigeons" cause you had to throw a rock at them to get them in the air.:laugh: Get out from behind the desk already!

 

[Tanker Clown]

Hell, I have more T-37 instructor time than you have total time! We used to call guys like you "pigeons" cause you had to throw a rock at them to get them in the air.:laugh: Get out from behind the desk already!

I"m probably over 2k if you count my jumpseat time, UPT time, and the 40 or so hours I got in flight screening.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

That is just awesome.

 

[jke406]

I"m probably over 2k if you count my jumpseat time, UPT time, and the 40 or so hours I got in flight screening.

I'll take a somewhat confused air force desk jockey cancer survivor (Tanker Clown) over a deluded, egotistical, divisive pudknocker (737 Pylt/General Lee--yes, they are the same guy) every day of the week.

 

[Draginass]

Read a few things from ominous sources to the press. (leaks?). Nothing form the MEC. Sounds like nice pay raises. 20-30% for DAL/NWA over 4 years. Sounds like seniority is FAR apart.

YBGSM Diesel. Over FOUR YEARS??????!!!!!! CHUMP CHANGE. If true, those chumps are getting fleeced. After the raping they took at the hands of the company execs, that kind of offer is insulting. The coming inflation is going to eat a bunch of that up alone.

 

[Tanker Clown]

YBGSM Diesel. Over FOUR YEARS??????!!!!!! CHUMP CHANGE. If true, those chumps are getting fleeced. After the raping they took at the hands of the company execs, that kind of offer is insulting. The coming inflation is going to eat a bunch of that up alone.

No kidding. That will barely keep up with inflation. If you compare it to the 2000 pay rates adjusted for inflation it's a still a pretty significant paycut. These guys need to grab a pair.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Can anyone at NWA confirm that NWA ALPA is making statements to the press. DALPA has been quiet,

737

Yes,and is the source of some of these "rumors." From CNBC:

A person close to the talks said Tuesday night that a small group of Northwest pilot negotiators want thousands of young Delta pilots to go to the bottom of the combined seniority list as part of agreeing to a deal. The person said that was a major hang-up.
But Greg Rizzuto, a spokesman for Northwest's pilots union, said Wednesday that the labor group is united, and all it wants is what's fair, noting that a pilot's career is tied to his or her seniority ranking.

I see Greg Rizzuto's name on a bunch of articles. Who is he? Some articles refer to him as Chairman, is he the MEC Chair?

 

[Fly4hire]

Yes,and is the source of some of these "rumors." From CNBC:

I see Greg Rizzuto's name on a bunch of articles. Who is he? Some articles refer to him as Chairman, is he the MEC Chair?

Rizutto and Coons are authorized NWALPA Spokespersons as quoted.

The un-named sources are waaaaaay off as to accuracy, and are obviously an attempt to pressure negotiation in the press in favor of an unbalanced DAL outcome.

Today's USA today summarized the issue pretty well IMO:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flig...nwa-merger-at-risk_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Northwest pilot negotiators worry that under terms offered by their union counterparts at Delta, nearly all of the current Northwest pilots would in a few years be blocked from advancement to higher-paid positions flying the largest jets
.
The imbalance would result from the fact that hundreds of senior Delta pilots took early retirement before the company filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 2005.

At the same time, most of Northwest's senior pilots remained in their jobs.

As a result, most of Delta's pilots today are junior to Northwest's most senior pilots. But as those senior Northwest pilots reach retirement over the next several years, Delta pilots would have the inside track on top-paying jobs as captains of the largest jetliners.

Bottom line is DAL should and has gotten credit for your early retirements, and NWA pilots should get credit for ours. Pretty simple.

No one at NWALPA wants to profit at DAL pilots expense.

Relative seniority is only worth something if it is maintained over time, and if not totally negates any contractual quids.

If this deal falls apart it will be due to the hubris of DALPA wanting further seniority credit for future NWA retirements.

The sooner DALPA gets it through their head that this is not a Western or PAA, the sooner there will be a deal.

While only seat of the pants, I get the impression most NWA pilots would prefer to Keep Delta THEIR Delta.

 

[jke406]

Bottom line is DAL should and has gotten credit for your early retirements, and NWA pilots should get credit for ours. Pretty simple.

When does Delta get credit for its better pay and work rules? NWA guys are all too happy to accept those without conceding anything.

 

[Kroll]

When does Delta get credit for its better pay and work rules? NWA guys are all too happy to accept those without conceding anything.

When they threw in the towel on their pensions.

 

[Fly4hire]

When does Delta get credit for its better pay and work rules? NWA guys are all too happy to accept those without conceding anything.

Really? There is no "deal" as of yet - it's hung up on seniority. Sure we'll take a pay raise, but not at the cost of selling our soul to Widget.

I think our MEC realizes seniority is more important than the pay, and there will not be one without the other.

You guys seem to think that you are buying off our seniority with contractual enhancements. NOT.

Here's a hint to take back to your negotiators: NWA pilots don't need this deal, and would rather not be DAL pilots.

It's your new CEO, RA, and the hedge funds who want this so badly.

Let them throw some more money at DALPA to sweeten it for you guys

 

[Draginass]

Sure we'll take a pay raise, but not at the cost of selling our soul to Widget.

Pay RAISE???? It's no pay raise. Maybe a PARTIAL pay restoration, but certainly no raise. Looks like Steenland and Anderson still have ALPA and the pilots on their knees.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If this deal falls apart it will be due to the hubris of DALPA wanting further seniority credit for future NWA retirements.

Fly4hire,

Thanks for your rational post. However, I disagree with your logic.

NWA might have 1,000 retirements over a decade, which will be offset by a shrinking fleet as DC-9's are replaced by 72 RJ's already on order. Those jobs are leaving the property under current scope provisions. Steenland says he has "no" practical restrictions on outsourcing.

Delta has repeatedly increased its hiring forecast which now stands at 500 for the rest of 08. This matches the most recent Advance Entitlement with 500+ slots and over 100 Captain slots and we have had three of these since June of 07. There is supposed to be another AE in May. Many new hires are going to heavies and international operations. This, with nearly zero retirements.

Delta is growing and the performance of these growth markets is "exciting." I believe that Delta will benefit from open skies (as will NWA) since doing business in euros while costs are in dollars has become competitive advantage.

The NWA pilots think these retirements are a big bargaining chip, let me explain why they are not. First, Delta will retire more pilots than NWA if you move your slider out 3 years further. Second, Delta's current growth exceeds the NWA retirements. Third, both airlines have been running at bankruptcy staffing levels (NWA pilots fought that battle and should be familiar with it). Any of these factors impact seniority list growth more than the retirements.

So, lets consider the left seat. The narrow body upgrades are getting moved off the NWA property faster than they are coming on board.

I still maintain that a huge hole in this deal is not using the opportunity to fix scope and keep NWA DC-9 flying on your property. When (not if) engine technology makes transcon range possible with an RJ, the 319 is threatened too.

It isn't hubris. DAL/NWA can benefit each other through network reach and our combined network can result in more international jobs. But this is not a zero sum game. DAL/NWA can gain network synergies and growth through codeshare and partnerships without a merger. The merger is a nice to have in Delta's stand alone plan. It will work out either way.

Can the NWA pilots kill the deal, yes, and I think they are going to. They understandably want to take a position that ignores the possibility that Delta is a better place to work.

I think one other factor the NWA pilots might not fully appreciate is that DAL Management and D-ALPA are publishing nearly identical criteria and assurances for Delta employees. They are working together.

A merger will actually increase the costs for the combined pilot group, it does not make fuel cheaper, and a team of Indian engineers could write the software to make the "synergies" happen in two weeks without the problems of disparate fleets, political battles, training and GO relocations. IMHO the NWA pilots are overplaying their hand.

 

[DTW320]

NWA might have 1,000 retirements over a decade, which will be offset by a shrinking fleet as DC-9's are replaced by 72 RJ's already on order. Those jobs are leaving the property under current scope provisions. Steenland says he has "no" practical restrictions on outsourcing.

You seem to have a naive belief that what airline CEO's say is Gospel. If Steenland said that, then he seems to have forgotten our Scope clause, which is more restrictive than yours. NWA can get about 18 more 76 seat RJ's and then it goes 1 for 1 with mainline growth A/C. Unless of course we merge and the DAL scope clause rules the day. You guys can have 200 70 seaters, 30 of which can have 76 seats. Then for every mainline a/c you get they can add 3 - 76 seaters. But at least there's no flow back to the 76 seaters if a furlough happens. Unless we decide to give'em back our scope clause, the only way what you describe can happen is if we merge and get YOUR scope clause. Do you see the NWA pilot's concern?

When (not if) engine technology makes transcon range possible with an RJ, the 319 is threatened too.

Again, not with our scope clause, unless NWA wants to add enough 76 seaters and frequencies to make up for 76 seats vs. 124 on a 319. If they do, fine. Our scope says that we will get a new mainline a/c for every 76 seater they put at the regional.

Never forget the old joke about how to tell if an airline executive is lying. That goes for Anderson too....he was my CEO for a lot longer than he's been yours. He was Lorenzo's chief counsel in the late 80's. He's not the DAL pilot's friend.

 

[~~~^~~~]

DTW - good post. One point, the DAL 76 seaters are only required to be reconfigured if furloughs go back to the 2001 hires. T K will have almost 1,000 below him by the end of this year.

So almost 1,000 pilots could leave before triggering the provision.

 

[737 Pylt]

I'll take a somewhat confused air force desk jockey cancer survivor (Tanker Clown) over a deluded, egotistical, divisive pudknocker (737 Pylt/General Lee--yes, they are the same guy) every day of the week.

JERK!
You back?
How was the vacation? You better watch that potty mouth now. I know you suffer from turret syndrome, but be careful arguing with yourself as tanker clown, or you'll find yourself back in the closet (I thought you came out):laugh: for another time out!

737

 

[nwaredtail]

The NWA pilots think these retirements are a big bargaining chip, let me explain why they are not. First, Delta will retire more pilots than NWA if you move your slider out 3 years further. Second, Delta's current growth exceeds the NWA retirements. Third, both airlines have been running at bankruptcy staffing levels (NWA pilots fought that battle and should be familiar with it). Any of these factors impact seniority list growth more than the retirements.


really?

NWA next 10 years = 1029 retirements vs. 427 at DAL

Nwa next 15 years = 2417 vs. 2012 at DAL

Learn to add if you are going to use numerical arguments. No wonder there is no agreement yet.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Using your numbers:

DAL 2012-427=1585
NWA 2417-1029=1388

The point that after 10 years Delta's retirements begin and then exceed NWA's are proven by your own figures. NWA pilots have wanted 10 year fences for this just reason, that they would get the benefit of their DOH now, the benefit of their retirements this decade and the benefit of Delta's retirements later.

You are concerned about your upgrade and fencing me out is fine with me. There is nothing at NWA I want except for the fact the combined entity would be better able to fund new fleet growth.

NWA's senior work force is a tough nut to crack and still be fair to anyone. Seems like using the claim money to buy them off the top and into retirement is the only thing that the pilots on the web boards can agree on.

 

[abe44]

I keep seeing posts here (and articles everywhere in the know-nothing press) about the pilots having a say in this thing.

I think most of us here know this, but if "the powers that be" want this merger to happen...it'll happen. Neither pilot group or MEC can stop this thing, despite what Katie Couric will tell you on the evening news.

What can happen, if the senority issues can be ironed out anytime soon, is that the pilots will get a chunk of change and possibly some sort of pay raise. In return, the management and creditors get some assurances that this thing doesn't turn into a USAir/AM West senority debacle.

My prediction: This thing will go through without a combined list....with a fun-filled trip to the arbitrator to follow.

Abe

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Lets hope not, but if we cannot not come to a deal, that is exactly where it will go.

 

[nwaredtail]

Using your numbers:

DAL 2012-427=1585
NWA 2417-1029=1388

The point that after 10 years Delta's retirements begin and then exceed NWA's are proven by your own figures. NWA pilots have wanted 10 year fences for this just reason, that they would get the benefit of their DOH now, the benefit of their retirements this decade and the benefit of Delta's retirements later.

You are concerned about your upgrade and fencing me out is fine with me. There is nothing at NWA I want except for the fact the combined entity would be better able to fund new fleet growth.

NWA's senior work force is a tough nut to crack and still be fair to anyone. Seems like using the claim money to buy them off the top and into retirement is the only thing that the pilots on the web boards can agree on.

I agree the big issue is the NWA pilots enjoying the seniority rise that the DAL folks enjoyed over the last few years. A buyout, early out may work, but unless there is a way to get to close to equal footing, a deal will not get done.

IMO, the airline could be a good one. Routes, size, fairly similar age groups. Everyone has to be a little unhappy in this MERGER! So far, the DAL merger committee has been unwilling to move. Who knows where it will end up.

 

[tomgoodman]

Good idea?

Seems like using the claim money to buy them off the top and into retirement is the only thing that the pilots on the web boards can agree on.

According to a rumor on another forum, that was proposed, but shot down by management:

It is widely accepted/believed among the DAL folks that DALPA's opening offer was DOH if the company would buy out the top 2000 or so NWA guys and send them into retirement paradise. This would put the two groups on fairly equal footing as far as average time on property goes. This did not fly because DAL would not fund it.