Fact or fiction from NWA ALPA??

[Fly4hire]

Yes,and is the source of some of these "rumors." From CNBC:

I see Greg Rizzuto's name on a bunch of articles. Who is he? Some articles refer to him as Chairman, is he the MEC Chair?

Rizutto and Coons are authorized NWALPA Spokespersons as quoted.

The un-named sources are waaaaaay off as to accuracy, and are obviously an attempt to pressure negotiation in the press in favor of an unbalanced DAL outcome.

Today's USA today summarized the issue pretty well IMO:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flig...nwa-merger-at-risk_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Northwest pilot negotiators worry that under terms offered by their union counterparts at Delta, nearly all of the current Northwest pilots would in a few years be blocked from advancement to higher-paid positions flying the largest jets
.
The imbalance would result from the fact that hundreds of senior Delta pilots took early retirement before the company filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 2005.

At the same time, most of Northwest's senior pilots remained in their jobs.

As a result, most of Delta's pilots today are junior to Northwest's most senior pilots. But as those senior Northwest pilots reach retirement over the next several years, Delta pilots would have the inside track on top-paying jobs as captains of the largest jetliners.

Bottom line is DAL should and has gotten credit for your early retirements, and NWA pilots should get credit for ours. Pretty simple.

No one at NWALPA wants to profit at DAL pilots expense.

Relative seniority is only worth something if it is maintained over time, and if not totally negates any contractual quids.

If this deal falls apart it will be due to the hubris of DALPA wanting further seniority credit for future NWA retirements.

The sooner DALPA gets it through their head that this is not a Western or PAA, the sooner there will be a deal.

While only seat of the pants, I get the impression most NWA pilots would prefer to Keep Delta THEIR Delta.

 

[jke406]

Bottom line is DAL should and has gotten credit for your early retirements, and NWA pilots should get credit for ours. Pretty simple.

When does Delta get credit for its better pay and work rules? NWA guys are all too happy to accept those without conceding anything.

 

[Kroll]

When does Delta get credit for its better pay and work rules? NWA guys are all too happy to accept those without conceding anything.

When they threw in the towel on their pensions.

 

[Fly4hire]

When does Delta get credit for its better pay and work rules? NWA guys are all too happy to accept those without conceding anything.

Really? There is no "deal" as of yet - it's hung up on seniority. Sure we'll take a pay raise, but not at the cost of selling our soul to Widget.

I think our MEC realizes seniority is more important than the pay, and there will not be one without the other.

You guys seem to think that you are buying off our seniority with contractual enhancements. NOT.

Here's a hint to take back to your negotiators: NWA pilots don't need this deal, and would rather not be DAL pilots.

It's your new CEO, RA, and the hedge funds who want this so badly.

Let them throw some more money at DALPA to sweeten it for you guys

 

[Draginass]

Sure we'll take a pay raise, but not at the cost of selling our soul to Widget.

Pay RAISE???? It's no pay raise. Maybe a PARTIAL pay restoration, but certainly no raise. Looks like Steenland and Anderson still have ALPA and the pilots on their knees.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If this deal falls apart it will be due to the hubris of DALPA wanting further seniority credit for future NWA retirements.

Fly4hire,

Thanks for your rational post. However, I disagree with your logic.

NWA might have 1,000 retirements over a decade, which will be offset by a shrinking fleet as DC-9's are replaced by 72 RJ's already on order. Those jobs are leaving the property under current scope provisions. Steenland says he has "no" practical restrictions on outsourcing.

Delta has repeatedly increased its hiring forecast which now stands at 500 for the rest of 08. This matches the most recent Advance Entitlement with 500+ slots and over 100 Captain slots and we have had three of these since June of 07. There is supposed to be another AE in May. Many new hires are going to heavies and international operations. This, with nearly zero retirements.

Delta is growing and the performance of these growth markets is "exciting." I believe that Delta will benefit from open skies (as will NWA) since doing business in euros while costs are in dollars has become competitive advantage.

The NWA pilots think these retirements are a big bargaining chip, let me explain why they are not. First, Delta will retire more pilots than NWA if you move your slider out 3 years further. Second, Delta's current growth exceeds the NWA retirements. Third, both airlines have been running at bankruptcy staffing levels (NWA pilots fought that battle and should be familiar with it). Any of these factors impact seniority list growth more than the retirements.

So, lets consider the left seat. The narrow body upgrades are getting moved off the NWA property faster than they are coming on board.

I still maintain that a huge hole in this deal is not using the opportunity to fix scope and keep NWA DC-9 flying on your property. When (not if) engine technology makes transcon range possible with an RJ, the 319 is threatened too.

It isn't hubris. DAL/NWA can benefit each other through network reach and our combined network can result in more international jobs. But this is not a zero sum game. DAL/NWA can gain network synergies and growth through codeshare and partnerships without a merger. The merger is a nice to have in Delta's stand alone plan. It will work out either way.

Can the NWA pilots kill the deal, yes, and I think they are going to. They understandably want to take a position that ignores the possibility that Delta is a better place to work.

I think one other factor the NWA pilots might not fully appreciate is that DAL Management and D-ALPA are publishing nearly identical criteria and assurances for Delta employees. They are working together.

A merger will actually increase the costs for the combined pilot group, it does not make fuel cheaper, and a team of Indian engineers could write the software to make the "synergies" happen in two weeks without the problems of disparate fleets, political battles, training and GO relocations. IMHO the NWA pilots are overplaying their hand.

 

[DTW320]

NWA might have 1,000 retirements over a decade, which will be offset by a shrinking fleet as DC-9's are replaced by 72 RJ's already on order. Those jobs are leaving the property under current scope provisions. Steenland says he has "no" practical restrictions on outsourcing.

You seem to have a naive belief that what airline CEO's say is Gospel. If Steenland said that, then he seems to have forgotten our Scope clause, which is more restrictive than yours. NWA can get about 18 more 76 seat RJ's and then it goes 1 for 1 with mainline growth A/C. Unless of course we merge and the DAL scope clause rules the day. You guys can have 200 70 seaters, 30 of which can have 76 seats. Then for every mainline a/c you get they can add 3 - 76 seaters. But at least there's no flow back to the 76 seaters if a furlough happens. Unless we decide to give'em back our scope clause, the only way what you describe can happen is if we merge and get YOUR scope clause. Do you see the NWA pilot's concern?

When (not if) engine technology makes transcon range possible with an RJ, the 319 is threatened too.

Again, not with our scope clause, unless NWA wants to add enough 76 seaters and frequencies to make up for 76 seats vs. 124 on a 319. If they do, fine. Our scope says that we will get a new mainline a/c for every 76 seater they put at the regional.

Never forget the old joke about how to tell if an airline executive is lying. That goes for Anderson too....he was my CEO for a lot longer than he's been yours. He was Lorenzo's chief counsel in the late 80's. He's not the DAL pilot's friend.

 

[~~~^~~~]

DTW - good post. One point, the DAL 76 seaters are only required to be reconfigured if furloughs go back to the 2001 hires. T K will have almost 1,000 below him by the end of this year.

So almost 1,000 pilots could leave before triggering the provision.

 

[737 Pylt]

I'll take a somewhat confused air force desk jockey cancer survivor (Tanker Clown) over a deluded, egotistical, divisive pudknocker (737 Pylt/General Lee--yes, they are the same guy) every day of the week.

JERK!
You back?
How was the vacation? You better watch that potty mouth now. I know you suffer from turret syndrome, but be careful arguing with yourself as tanker clown, or you'll find yourself back in the closet (I thought you came out):laugh: for another time out!

737

 

[nwaredtail]

The NWA pilots think these retirements are a big bargaining chip, let me explain why they are not. First, Delta will retire more pilots than NWA if you move your slider out 3 years further. Second, Delta's current growth exceeds the NWA retirements. Third, both airlines have been running at bankruptcy staffing levels (NWA pilots fought that battle and should be familiar with it). Any of these factors impact seniority list growth more than the retirements.


really?

NWA next 10 years = 1029 retirements vs. 427 at DAL

Nwa next 15 years = 2417 vs. 2012 at DAL

Learn to add if you are going to use numerical arguments. No wonder there is no agreement yet.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Using your numbers:

DAL 2012-427=1585
NWA 2417-1029=1388

The point that after 10 years Delta's retirements begin and then exceed NWA's are proven by your own figures. NWA pilots have wanted 10 year fences for this just reason, that they would get the benefit of their DOH now, the benefit of their retirements this decade and the benefit of Delta's retirements later.

You are concerned about your upgrade and fencing me out is fine with me. There is nothing at NWA I want except for the fact the combined entity would be better able to fund new fleet growth.

NWA's senior work force is a tough nut to crack and still be fair to anyone. Seems like using the claim money to buy them off the top and into retirement is the only thing that the pilots on the web boards can agree on.

 

[abe44]

I keep seeing posts here (and articles everywhere in the know-nothing press) about the pilots having a say in this thing.

I think most of us here know this, but if "the powers that be" want this merger to happen...it'll happen. Neither pilot group or MEC can stop this thing, despite what Katie Couric will tell you on the evening news.

What can happen, if the senority issues can be ironed out anytime soon, is that the pilots will get a chunk of change and possibly some sort of pay raise. In return, the management and creditors get some assurances that this thing doesn't turn into a USAir/AM West senority debacle.

My prediction: This thing will go through without a combined list....with a fun-filled trip to the arbitrator to follow.

Abe

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Lets hope not, but if we cannot not come to a deal, that is exactly where it will go.

 

[nwaredtail]

Using your numbers:

DAL 2012-427=1585
NWA 2417-1029=1388

The point that after 10 years Delta's retirements begin and then exceed NWA's are proven by your own figures. NWA pilots have wanted 10 year fences for this just reason, that they would get the benefit of their DOH now, the benefit of their retirements this decade and the benefit of Delta's retirements later.

You are concerned about your upgrade and fencing me out is fine with me. There is nothing at NWA I want except for the fact the combined entity would be better able to fund new fleet growth.

NWA's senior work force is a tough nut to crack and still be fair to anyone. Seems like using the claim money to buy them off the top and into retirement is the only thing that the pilots on the web boards can agree on.

I agree the big issue is the NWA pilots enjoying the seniority rise that the DAL folks enjoyed over the last few years. A buyout, early out may work, but unless there is a way to get to close to equal footing, a deal will not get done.

IMO, the airline could be a good one. Routes, size, fairly similar age groups. Everyone has to be a little unhappy in this MERGER! So far, the DAL merger committee has been unwilling to move. Who knows where it will end up.

 

[tomgoodman]

Good idea?

Seems like using the claim money to buy them off the top and into retirement is the only thing that the pilots on the web boards can agree on.

According to a rumor on another forum, that was proposed, but shot down by management:

It is widely accepted/believed among the DAL folks that DALPA's opening offer was DOH if the company would buy out the top 2000 or so NWA guys and send them into retirement paradise. This would put the two groups on fairly equal footing as far as average time on property goes. This did not fly because DAL would not fund it.