FAA Violated staffing policies

[HoserASA]

Look at the big picture people, the tower seperates traffic on the gound---job was done sucessfully, Im sure tower guy cleared the crj for takeoff on the right runway-----so, we are looking at a pilot problem, not a controller problem!!!!!!!
We are flying the airplane and have the final responsibility for our actions, so as the blame gets handed out to everyone (most of who don't deserve it), remenber that pilots took off on a SHORT runway---gross negligence in my book.

What you say is true regarding the crew. But the controller is responsible for watching that plane takeoff too. If he had been doing that, the incident may have been prevented. I know what I'm talking about too.

Hoser
ASA CRJ Capt
Retired ATC

 

[SkyBoy1981]

It was a multitude of errors and factors. Blaming it on 'gross negligence' of one person doesn't improve safety. That's why these accidents are so well studied. Maybe you need to look at the 'big picture'.

Agreed. If this controller was being expected to give clearances, taxi instructions, takeoff/departure instructions, provide radar vectoring for aircraft as well as deal with weather observations and ATIS broadcasts it is very possible that he/she simply did not have the time to look out of the window to watch a CRJ depart. Had their been another set of eyes in the tower that morning dividing this workload this very well could have been prevented. The "big picture" contains much more than just the root cause of the accident.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

All accidents are a chain of events. The pilot actions were the last link to break.

 

[another cfii]

Add LIT, MDT among others to the list...

You can tell how busy they get around 6 am, when few a/c all getting clearance, preparing atis, a/c getting pushed, taxiing around, taking off... all on 1 man's shoulder...

 

[HoserASA]

All accidents are a chain of events. The pilot actions were the last link to break.

True, but the controller could have broke the link as well. Staffing at that tower, at that hour of the day, evidently requires more than one controller on duty. Betcha the NTSB lists that as a contributing factor, many of which are beginning to appear in this incident, like airport management regarding NOTAMS and changes to taxiways.

Hoser

 

[Longhorn]

Guys,

critique it all you want. But please, show some respect for the crews, pax and their families. To call the pilots stupid is not appropriate at all. Make all the professional comments you want but leave the name calling out of it please.

Thanks for the understanding.

 

[Wasted]

Two professional pilots took off on the wrong runway at night with no runway lights. Could it have been caught by a controller? Sure. But you can't fault them for blatent pilot stupidity.

Then I guess the lesson to take from this accident is "Don't be stupid!" Boy, think how far aviation safety will go when we all realize that all we have to do to prevent any future accidents is to "Not be stupid" and/or "Don't do that again."

Every accident is a chain. The last link in the chain is the pilot.

There is going to be many links in this chain. And I will bet you that there are a lot of parties gathering their lawyers around right now because there are a lot of people out there asides from the two pilots, who know already that they are going to catch it for this one.

Everybody from the airport authority who are going to be sued for inadequate effort at informing users of the construction activities at that airport. There are no 10-8s for Lexington and it has been months since they started work. To Jeppeson for not providing up to date charts to pilots. To the FAA for inadequate staffing, controller error and inadequate NOTAMs. To Comair for providing the pilots who will end up having pilot-error pinned on them. Probably the only one to get off this one is Canadair, though I bet they will still get sued over the plane design since it sounds like most survived the crash but burned to death, unable to get out.

To call it blatant stupidity on the part of the pilots is to let all others culpable off scot free. We just depend on the pilot to be the goalkeeper who keeps all these other idiots out there trying to kill you from doing so. Unfortunately, these guys failed at that.

 

[ATTCS]

What you say is true regarding the crew. But the controller is responsible for watching that plane takeoff too. If he had been doing that, the incident may have been prevented. I know what I'm talking about too.

Hoser
ASA CRJ Capt
Retired ATC

The controller is responsible for separation of traffic. That is their main concern. HOWEVER, if the controller observes any unsafe condition germain to flight safety it is also their responsibility to notify any pilots that it may affect. Any time I cleared someone to land or takeoff I watched either the landing or takeoff. You'd be surprised what happens sometimes. I'm also a retired USAF controller and during the controller strike in '81 I worked at a FAA facility for 6 months. Not much difference.

 

[ReportCanoa]

I think what we have here on flightinfo are pilots and armchair quarterbacks with little experience or lack of education in subjects such as human factors. When you study this stuff in the military, university flight programs, or merely have 'been around the block', a person tends to approach the subject of an accident with more humility and objectivity. Just an observation.

 

[CatYaaak]

Airports under construction affecting ramps, taxiways, runways....very common

Charts and plates having lag-time before updated to reflect reality.....very common

Tower controller not being able to see T/O or landing traffic due to restricted visibility...... very common.

All three of these things existing at places we fly?.....very common.

Pilots operating safely, avoiding incidents and accidents when they exist?.....very, VERY common.

So given that these factors everyone seems to to suddenly think dramatic are in fact common occurences (and will continue to be) that we operate safely through, should we as professionals (the ones who truly control what goes on in our cockpit) be more concerned with them, or more concerned with how WE can improve our ability to adapt and remain vigilant when conditions are less than perfect?

Don't let this become an outside/human factors diffusive blame game that begins to sound like excuses. Outside/human factors are real things and understanding them enhances safety tremendously, but changing a sign at Lexington or manning each tower with 5 x-ray vision controllers to babysit still can't replace our performance as pilots.

We should be most concerned with our conduct, and what we can do to adjust to whatever outside imperfections come our way. They'll be coming our way our whole careers and no two situations are alike.

 

[Wasted]

Airports under construction affecting ramps, taxiways, runways....very common

Charts and plates having lag-time before updated to reflect reality.....very common

Tower controller not being able to see T/O or landing traffic due to restricted visibility...... very common.

All three of these things existing at places we fly?.....very common.

Pilots operating safely, avoiding incidents and accidents when they exist?.....very, VERY common.

So should no attempt be made to correct these deficiencies then? Mountains and the ground are common too, aren't they? Thousands of planes fly over mountains and ground everyday safely. If they said the same thing about it twenty years ago, then nobody would have bothered to develop and pay for installing GPWS then. Nothing excuses not realizing you are on the wrong runway, but the controllable factors that increase the probability that someone could unwittingly do something like this need to be reduced as well.

 

[HoserASA]

The controller is responsible for separation of traffic. That is their main concern. HOWEVER, if the controller observes any unsafe condition germain to flight safety it is also their responsibility to notify any pilots that it may affect. Any time I cleared someone to land or takeoff I watched either the landing or takeoff. You'd be surprised what happens sometimes. I'm also a retired USAF controller and during the controller strike in '81 I worked at a FAA facility for 6 months. Not much difference.

Hey, me too! Actually went in January of '82, four months after the strike. In the northeast part of the country. Hey we may know each other! Go AirForce!

Hoser

 

[ReportCanoa]

We should be most concerned with our conduct, and what we can do to adjust to whatever outside imperfections come our way. They'll be coming our way our whole careers and no two situations are alike.

Agreed, but remember, the lowest common denominator is out there somewhere flying around.

 

[transpac]

So should no attempt be made to correct these deficiencies then? Mountains and the ground are common too, aren't they? Thousands of planes fly over mountains and ground everyday safely. If they said the same thing about it twenty years ago, then nobody would have bothered to develop and pay for installing GPWS then. Nothing excuses not realizing you are on the wrong runway, but the controllable factors that increase the probability that someone could unwittingly do something like this need to be reduced as well.

So, should the taxpayers hire additional controllers to make sure airplanes take off on the assigned runway? Better yet, put a controller on every jumpseat to read the number painted on the pavement to the crew. Maybe a controller should review the performance numbers and wt & bal too. Can't have too many sets of eyes checking things! Maybe the airlines could fund this.

 

[Wasted]

So, should the taxpayers hire additional controllers to make sure airplanes take off on the assigned runway? Better yet, put a controller on every jumpseat to read the number painted on the pavement to the crew. Maybe a controller should review the performance numbers and wt & bal too. Can't have too many sets of eyes checking things! Maybe the airlines could fund this.

They should hire enough to staff the towers according to their own rules....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-29-ky-crash-controller_x.htm