FAA Vacation

[skiandsurf]

I met a CSR at an FBO in Long Beach a while back who was leaving for Oklahoma City for controller school and then going straight to LAX tower for OJT starting on the clearance position, then ground, then local control. Even though a Full Performance Level controller will be watching over her shoulder, that's a sobering thought for any professional pilot and just a reminder that, to borrow a phrase, eternal vigilance is the price of safety.

Just my opinion, but I dont know what the big deal about LAX is all about. Parallel runways. None to very few private pilots. Almost always using the 24s and 25s. No LAHSO. Other than morning fog, no real weather issues. The only real issue is the foriegners (roy-er means roger). But theres really not that many of them.

I would think that LAX is easier than BUR, SNA, SFO, BOS, ORD ....

 

[gutshotdraw]

Agreed, but if they are hiring entry level into LAX, that probably means they are hiring entry level into all those other facilities as well.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Our esteem issues are costing us dearly.

Man that is the truth.

 

[igneousy2]

They tried "holding pilots accountable" before and it didn't work. I can gurantee you that right now these two (the two SWA pilots) are the least likely of any of us to take off without a clearence in the future.

The ASAP/NASA programs were NOT started to protect pilots career...they were started because some insightful people figured out that it was better for all of us in the system if the persons involved in an accident/incident were given pretty much blanket immunity as long as the acts were not deliberate.

This attitude toward incidents like this allow all involved to speak freely as to why/how this happens, sooner, so that we can learn from this incident. Since we have these programs in place the FAA already has a complete picture as to what happened and can combine this information with other similar incidents and come up with a solution sooner.

If we didn't have this..these pilots would be so lawyered up all you would get out of them is some vague, legal mumbo-jumbo that made their army of lawyers feel better but would contribute nothing to making the air system safer.

As far as your stupid analogy with the surgery, my wife is a nurse, and with the stories that I hear I can assure you that your spleen would have been cut out and sewn back in and you and your family physician would not know anything about it. Everyone in that operating room would be liable and everyone in that operating room would have no problem being part of the conspiracy to keep it covered up. If the airlines killed as many people as doctors nobody would be flying.

We don't need the companies and the FAA to hold us accountable as we all know we are the first to the scene of any accident that we cause. Fear of the FAA or the loss of my career has little to do with why I make sure I am REALLY "cleared for takeoff".

 

[gutshotdraw]

If the airlines killed as many people as doctors nobody would be flying.

Most accurate statement so far this year.

 

[Guitar rocker]

What we're really missing is: who here has taken off without clearance? I haven't because anytime I have questioned it with the FO, I called on the radio.

So what you are telling me in this thread is that 2 guys missed a radio call?

I have read so many on this thread, "it can happen to anyone". It means that many more people will misinterpret a "taxi in to position and hold" and takeoff. Sad day for aviation.

Who passes for pilots nowadays. Some monkey that looks at lights?

Wow...someone who has never missed a radio call. You must be the infamous 3rd Wright Brother.

 

[UALjan15]

Quite a few guys have stated something like: "I bet these guys will never make that mistake again." Kind of like finding a pilot that landed gear up more than once.

The key to staying out of this kind of trouble is creating the same sort of "I'll never do that again" mindset in yourself, even though it never happened to you in the first place. In other words, how can I keep complacency from EVER entering my cockpit? I don't think that is really possible, but I DO think the best aviators have realized the common and costly traps that are out there (runway incursions, taking off w/o clearance, improper configurations, wrong runway, etc.) and have created a technique for themselves that won't fail them even when something unusual happens in their habit patterns.

Even though these types of threads tend to lead to a "rush to judgment," I appreciate them because they make us all think about how it could happen to us. Last year (or the year before), when the Comair crew took off from the wrong runway, I came to the conclusion that I didn't have anything (other than my general SA) to prevent me from doing the same thing. So I started making a concious effort to read the paint on the runway as I repeated my takeoff or on-to-hold clearance. It's a simple thing, but maybe it will save me some day.

In the end, I don't think FAA discipline is why our aviation system is as astoundingly safe as it is. It is all about a safety culture that we all (I hope) carry within us, and learning from other's mistakes is a huge part of that culture for me.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Agreed. My heart goes out to those guys, that really sucks.

As I understand it, ASAP only works for sole source. That is, if the only way the mistake could be found out was because you disclosed it.

I don't think the SWA crew were the only ones who knew they F'd up and so the ASAP report will not cover them.

That being said, it still wouldn't hurt to get it done. I'll bet they get a note in their file but nothing more.

That is incorrect. ASAP programs always allow the FAA and/or the company to provide instruction and training if necessary, regardless of the report being sole source or not. And if its not sole source you can get a letter that's removed from your records 2 years or so later, but not a violation, as long as the event was unintentional, and the report was filed within the required time period (usually 24 hours), etc.

If the only benefit of ASAP (or NASA reports for that matter) was imminuty from punishment only for things they wouldn't have known about, no one would participate in the program. In order to encourage saftey reporting of as many safety events as possible (the goal) things are very well covered even if they are not sole source.

 

[av8tor19]

Not only I was the third Wright Brother, I choose the bike they made the plane from.

Yes, I have made mistakes in the past and even had Chicago Center cover for me.

Unfortunately I have passed judgment on this crew without knowing the full report. There is either
1. They took off without a clearance. 2. The controller told them to takeoff.

What disturbs me about these posts is being in the training aspect in my company, I have come to the statement, "those who can and those who can't". If option 2 is correct, I would have done them same thing. If option 1 is correct, you are dealing with someone who doesn't understand clearances.

Would you put your family on his plane?

 

[Say Again Over]

Would you put your family on his plane?

Yes I would, a very professional airline in my opinion.