FAA should think twice about not having a retirement rule in 135 flying

[gret]

Your "facts" on the Houston matter are not completely accurate-

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/fulltext/AAB0606.html

 

[cldsfr79]

Your "facts" on the Houston matter are not completely accurate-

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/fulltext/AAB0606.html

I am so sorry for posting dis-information. They both weren't over 65. The CA was 67 and the FO was 62. My mistake.

And by reading the report it really did seem like they were working as a team to solve their approach problem.

They sure worked hard together in continuing a bad approach and flying themselves into the ground.

Personally, I have had approach problems before. ILS failures, GPS failures, equipment malfunctions, and yes the occasional mis-radio frequency set. The difference between me and them, is that I elected to go around and fix the problem instead of acting dumbfounded and confused.

 

[CL300Pilot]

This was not an age thing. This was a lack of EFIS experience.

I am so sorry for posting dis-information. They both weren't over 65. The CA was 67 and the FO was 62. My mistake.

And by reading the report it really did seem like they were working as a team to solve their approach problem.

They sure worked hard together in continuing a bad approach and flying themselves into the ground.

Personally, I have had approach problems before. ILS failures, GPS failures, equipment malfunctions, and yes the occasional mis-radio frequency set. The difference between me and them, is that I elected to go around and fix the problem instead of acting dumbfounded and confused.

 

[brokeflyer]

Excuse me?

When you arrive there, which you will, you can also take the flak.

im grandfathered in.....literally.

but really, it was a joke.

 

[pilotyip]

Excuse me?

When you arrive there, which you will, you can also take the flak.

and there is no guarantee that they will arrive there

 

[X-rated]

Has a young guy flown planes into the ground? You bet and it happens more often than not! But I thought the secondary issue besides death on the flight deck was that a superior older pilot with decades of service and tens of thousands of hours should be incredibly sharp and not make bad decisions. Accidents should not happen to them, only to the young inexperienced pilots. This line of thought does hold true until age starts kicking in. No I don't make things up, in my collegiate studies I have read multiple aviation human factors and aviation psychology books.

So, let me get this straight. You're saying you've read multiple aviation human factors and aviation psychology books in college that said humans of a certain experience level "should be incredibly sharp and not make bad decisions"? If you actually did read the books, and believe that, you have a very serious comprehension problem! What exactly do you think "Human" factors are?

With regard to your original post, can you really not see how unscientific and biased you are? You had an opinion and searched for data to prove your conclusions. You disregard everything that doesn't support your theory and think you are somehow informed. It's pathetic.

Human beings of all ages make mistakes; young, old, and everywhere in between. The question you really need to be asking is, what age group of professional multi crew pilots have the most fatal accidents. The NTSB documents the age of every airman involved in an accident or incident, so the data is available. Instead, you focus solely on pilot incapacitation, and conclude older pilots are more unsafe than younger pilots. The problem is, you failed to consider incidents that contradict your theory like the two youngsters who zoom climbed an RJ to FL410. The 31 year old Captain and 23 year old SIC flamed out and seized both engines, and then failed to find a single suitable place to land from FL410. I also must have missed it when you included the Colgan accident in Buffalo involving a 47 year old captain with 3300 TT and a 24 year old First Officer with 1400 hours TT. Do you really think it's likely two high time 65 year old pilots would have made the same mistakes? I think it highly unlikely.

I personally don't have the desire or time to do the kind of research required, but then again, I don't write Congressmen and the FAA railing against older pilots when I have no actual data to support my conclusions. In my opinion, you're just another nut with an agenda.

 

[t-bone]

Disclaimer about X-rated...he is REALLY old. At least relative to me. So please forgive his bitterness.

 

[gunfyter]

Disclaimer about X-rated...he is REALLY old. At least relative to me. So please forgive his bitterness.

Old ... but you disregard the time dilation effect from flying the X ... we are young in relative terms.

 

[t-bone]

Old ... but you disregard the time dilation effect from flying the X ... we are young in relative terms.

But I flew the 10 for 4 years too, so in relative terms, I'm still younger.

 

[pilotyip]

So, let me get this straight. You're saying you've read multiple aviation human factors and aviation psychology books in college that said humans of a certain experience level "should be incredibly sharp and not make bad decisions"? If you actually did read the books, and believe that, you have a very serious comprehension problem! What exactly do you think "Human" factors are?

With regard to your original post, can you really not see how unscientific and biased you are? You had an opinion and searched for data to prove your conclusions. You disregard everything that doesn't support your theory and think you are somehow informed. It's pathetic.

Human beings of all ages make mistakes; young, old, and everywhere in between. The question you really need to be asking is, what age group of professional multi crew pilots have the most fatal accidents. The NTSB documents the age of every airman involved in an accident or incident, so the data is available. Instead, you focus solely on pilot incapacitation, and conclude older pilots are more unsafe than younger pilots. The problem is, you failed to consider incidents that contradict your theory like the two youngsters who zoom climbed an RJ to FL410. The 31 year old Captain and 23 year old SIC flamed out and seized both engines, and then failed to find a single suitable place to land from FL410. I also must have missed it when you included the Colgan accident in Buffalo involving a 47 year old captain with 3300 TT and a 24 year old First Officer with 1400 hours TT. Do you really think it's likely two high time 65 year old pilots would have made the same mistakes? I think it highly unlikely.

I personally don't have the desire or time to do the kind of research required, but then again, I don't write Congressmen and the FAA railing against older pilots when I have no actual data to support my conclusions. In my opinion, you're just another nut with an agenda.

Hey stop that! this is FI, we do not deal in reality, only the fantasy of our minds that we can control the outcome of things beyond our control. Like pure "Get out of my seat" has to be approached as a safety issue, because then if you post against it, you are anti-safety.

BTW: Maybe it is a pilot thing?

 

[cldsfr79]

If you actually did read the books, and believe that, you have a very serious comprehension problem! What exactly do you think "Human" factors are?With regard to your original post, can you really not see how unscientific and biased you are? You had an opinion and searched for data to prove your conclusions. You disregard everything that doesn't support your theory and think you are somehow informed. It's pathetic.

I never said my "research" was scientific. Scientific research would take months and I sure wouldn't post it here. I spent 20 minutes searching "pilot incapacitation" in the NTSB report and found an overwhelming number of pilots above 60 who have passed while flying. That's how simple it is; I didn't bias the info, I just looked at what came up. I just posted what I found. I know the rough data hurts. There are not enough young guys passing to out way the older ones.

In regards to experience and age. Yes, there have been studies that show that older pilots have similar reaction time as younger new pilots when faced with a new situation. The older pilot reflects upon what experience they have had to deal with the situation while the inexperienced pilot has to mentally review their training to determine an out come. A strange thing happens though as the young pilot gains experience. He then becomes faster because of his training and experience while the older pilot begins to struggle because with age the mind has trouble retaining and learning new information as well as the processing time of the mind begins to slow. An example is why a 5 year old can learn both spanish and english with ease while some one older struggles with remembering the lessons.

 

[t-bone]

An example is why a 5 year old can learn both spanish and english with ease while some one older struggles with remembering the lessons.

Based on that example, I peaked somewhere soon after my first week in college.

 

[BuckMurdock1]

"Get out of my seat"

DING DING DING DING!!! Congratulations! You are the first person to use this term in over 500 posts on FI!
What do you win? ---Me telling you: "Get out of my seat!"

 

[X-rated]

I never said my "research" was scientific. Scientific research would take months and I sure wouldn't post it here. I spent 20 minutes searching "pilot incapacitation" ....

Yet, you have no problem petitioning your Senator and the FAA to ban older pilots. They may very well have a lower overall chance of hurting someone, but safety isn't your real concern anyway. You just want to upgrade! Very Sad.

With all due respect to that whipper Snapper T-Bone, I'm only 44, and he's catching up FAST!

 

[Helmsalee]

cld said "A strange thing happens though as the young pilot gains experience."

Yeah, he gets older. I rest my case.

Helm