FAA should think twice about not having a retirement rule in 135 flying

[X-rated]

Has a young guy flown planes into the ground? You bet and it happens more often than not! But I thought the secondary issue besides death on the flight deck was that a superior older pilot with decades of service and tens of thousands of hours should be incredibly sharp and not make bad decisions. Accidents should not happen to them, only to the young inexperienced pilots. This line of thought does hold true until age starts kicking in. No I don't make things up, in my collegiate studies I have read multiple aviation human factors and aviation psychology books.

So, let me get this straight. You're saying you've read multiple aviation human factors and aviation psychology books in college that said humans of a certain experience level "should be incredibly sharp and not make bad decisions"? If you actually did read the books, and believe that, you have a very serious comprehension problem! What exactly do you think "Human" factors are?

With regard to your original post, can you really not see how unscientific and biased you are? You had an opinion and searched for data to prove your conclusions. You disregard everything that doesn't support your theory and think you are somehow informed. It's pathetic.

Human beings of all ages make mistakes; young, old, and everywhere in between. The question you really need to be asking is, what age group of professional multi crew pilots have the most fatal accidents. The NTSB documents the age of every airman involved in an accident or incident, so the data is available. Instead, you focus solely on pilot incapacitation, and conclude older pilots are more unsafe than younger pilots. The problem is, you failed to consider incidents that contradict your theory like the two youngsters who zoom climbed an RJ to FL410. The 31 year old Captain and 23 year old SIC flamed out and seized both engines, and then failed to find a single suitable place to land from FL410. I also must have missed it when you included the Colgan accident in Buffalo involving a 47 year old captain with 3300 TT and a 24 year old First Officer with 1400 hours TT. Do you really think it's likely two high time 65 year old pilots would have made the same mistakes? I think it highly unlikely.

I personally don't have the desire or time to do the kind of research required, but then again, I don't write Congressmen and the FAA railing against older pilots when I have no actual data to support my conclusions. In my opinion, you're just another nut with an agenda.

 

[t-bone]

Disclaimer about X-rated...he is REALLY old. At least relative to me. So please forgive his bitterness.

 

[gunfyter]

Disclaimer about X-rated...he is REALLY old. At least relative to me. So please forgive his bitterness.

Old ... but you disregard the time dilation effect from flying the X ... we are young in relative terms.

 

[t-bone]

Old ... but you disregard the time dilation effect from flying the X ... we are young in relative terms.

But I flew the 10 for 4 years too, so in relative terms, I'm still younger.

 

[pilotyip]

So, let me get this straight. You're saying you've read multiple aviation human factors and aviation psychology books in college that said humans of a certain experience level "should be incredibly sharp and not make bad decisions"? If you actually did read the books, and believe that, you have a very serious comprehension problem! What exactly do you think "Human" factors are?

With regard to your original post, can you really not see how unscientific and biased you are? You had an opinion and searched for data to prove your conclusions. You disregard everything that doesn't support your theory and think you are somehow informed. It's pathetic.

Human beings of all ages make mistakes; young, old, and everywhere in between. The question you really need to be asking is, what age group of professional multi crew pilots have the most fatal accidents. The NTSB documents the age of every airman involved in an accident or incident, so the data is available. Instead, you focus solely on pilot incapacitation, and conclude older pilots are more unsafe than younger pilots. The problem is, you failed to consider incidents that contradict your theory like the two youngsters who zoom climbed an RJ to FL410. The 31 year old Captain and 23 year old SIC flamed out and seized both engines, and then failed to find a single suitable place to land from FL410. I also must have missed it when you included the Colgan accident in Buffalo involving a 47 year old captain with 3300 TT and a 24 year old First Officer with 1400 hours TT. Do you really think it's likely two high time 65 year old pilots would have made the same mistakes? I think it highly unlikely.

I personally don't have the desire or time to do the kind of research required, but then again, I don't write Congressmen and the FAA railing against older pilots when I have no actual data to support my conclusions. In my opinion, you're just another nut with an agenda.

Hey stop that! this is FI, we do not deal in reality, only the fantasy of our minds that we can control the outcome of things beyond our control. Like pure "Get out of my seat" has to be approached as a safety issue, because then if you post against it, you are anti-safety.

BTW: Maybe it is a pilot thing?

 

[cldsfr79]

If you actually did read the books, and believe that, you have a very serious comprehension problem! What exactly do you think "Human" factors are?With regard to your original post, can you really not see how unscientific and biased you are? You had an opinion and searched for data to prove your conclusions. You disregard everything that doesn't support your theory and think you are somehow informed. It's pathetic.

I never said my "research" was scientific. Scientific research would take months and I sure wouldn't post it here. I spent 20 minutes searching "pilot incapacitation" in the NTSB report and found an overwhelming number of pilots above 60 who have passed while flying. That's how simple it is; I didn't bias the info, I just looked at what came up. I just posted what I found. I know the rough data hurts. There are not enough young guys passing to out way the older ones.

In regards to experience and age. Yes, there have been studies that show that older pilots have similar reaction time as younger new pilots when faced with a new situation. The older pilot reflects upon what experience they have had to deal with the situation while the inexperienced pilot has to mentally review their training to determine an out come. A strange thing happens though as the young pilot gains experience. He then becomes faster because of his training and experience while the older pilot begins to struggle because with age the mind has trouble retaining and learning new information as well as the processing time of the mind begins to slow. An example is why a 5 year old can learn both spanish and english with ease while some one older struggles with remembering the lessons.

 

[t-bone]

An example is why a 5 year old can learn both spanish and english with ease while some one older struggles with remembering the lessons.

Based on that example, I peaked somewhere soon after my first week in college.

 

[BuckMurdock1]

"Get out of my seat"

DING DING DING DING!!! Congratulations! You are the first person to use this term in over 500 posts on FI!
What do you win? ---Me telling you: "Get out of my seat!"

 

[X-rated]

I never said my "research" was scientific. Scientific research would take months and I sure wouldn't post it here. I spent 20 minutes searching "pilot incapacitation" ....

Yet, you have no problem petitioning your Senator and the FAA to ban older pilots. They may very well have a lower overall chance of hurting someone, but safety isn't your real concern anyway. You just want to upgrade! Very Sad.

With all due respect to that whipper Snapper T-Bone, I'm only 44, and he's catching up FAST!

 

[Helmsalee]

cld said "A strange thing happens though as the young pilot gains experience."

Yeah, he gets older. I rest my case.

Helm

 

[t-bone]

With all due respect to that whipper Snapper T-Bone, I'm only 44, and he's catching up FAST!

Unless you're dead, how am I catching up? ;-)

 

[pilotyip]

Unless you're dead, how am I catching up? ;-)

it is a math thing % of age, on my sisters 1st B'day, I was 1000% older than her, she was born 10 years after me. On her 10th B'day I was only 100% older than her, and this year I am only a 17% older than her.

 

[t-bone]

it is a math thing % of age, on my sisters 1st B'day, I was 1000% older than her, she was born 10 years after me. On her 10th B'day I was only 100% older than her, and this year I am only a 17% older than her.

Ahh yes...makes perfect sense. I never was very good at math

 

[gunfyter]

Or like a penalty in football ... half the distance to the goal

 

["v"]

QUOTE=cldsfr79;2304694]I never said my "research" was scientific. Scientific research would take months and I sure wouldn't post it here. I spent 20 minutes searching "pilot incapacitation" in the NTSB report and found an overwhelming number of pilots above 60 who have passed while flying. That's how simple it is; I didn't bias the info, I just looked at what came up. I just posted what I found. I know the rough data hurts. There are not enough young guys passing to out way the older ones.

In regards to experience and age. Yes, there have been studies that show that older pilots have similar reaction time as younger new pilots when faced with a new situation. The older pilot reflects upon what experience they have had to deal with the situation while the inexperienced pilot has to mentally review their training to determine an out come. A strange thing happens though as the young pilot gains experience. He then becomes faster because of his training and experience while the older pilot begins to struggle because with age the mind has trouble retaining and learning new information as well as the processing time of the mind begins to slow. An example is why a 5 year old can learn both spanish and english with ease while some one older struggles with remembering the lessons.[/QUOTE]

So here's a problem. What about the "older" captains who have some serious experience, good crm and are still sharp as a whip. The blanket statement of "all pilots should retire at age X because they arent as sharp as they used to be" doesnt really work because those guys who can still fly the hell out of the aircraft are worth their weight in gold for mentoring the new guys. If this is a key factor in accidents then your class 1 medical should be tougher to account for the effects of age, progressive simulator training would be benneficial for all 135 pilots regardless of age rather than doing the same checkride year in and year out.

It would be a shame to see these guys pushed out of the cockpit because of others who (for whatever reason) arent fit to fly.

And i am not one of the older pilot types (by a long shot!)

 

[rettofly]

I never made a mistake until my 65th birthday. All my check rides were flawless. Every flight was perfect.

I suddenly found myself to be error prone, but it wasn't until three months before my 68th birthday that I realized I was becoming a menace to aviation. (Navy guys: does the term "dilbert" ring a bell?)

Once I recognized that I was hopelessly descending into the valley of errors, I told my CP that I would retire after working through the grace period on my last 6-month check, three weeks after I attained the decrepit age of 68. He was disappointed, but he got over it.

That was two years ago. Now I'm an instructor and check pilot with the Civil Air Patrol. I haven't killed anyone yet with my age-diminished skills and judgment, and Idon't see it happening any time soon.

Now that I'm out of the way, some young studs are able to turn to the left for guidance and see only their reflection in the side window. Good luck with that.

 

[X-rated]

Ahh yes...makes perfect sense. I never was very good at math

Think of it this way. When we met, the difference in our ages was about half of your lifetime. Today, the difference in our ages is about a quarter of your lifetime. If that trend continues, pretty soon you'll be older than me!

 

[Jack Campbell]

Now that I'm out of the way, some young studs are able to turn to the left for guidance and see only their reflection in the side window. Good luck with that.

Your comment smacks of pompous sarcasm. I wonder how many captains said the same about you when you before you moved to the left seat.

 

[gret]

The comment was insightful and foretelling...not pompous or sarcastic.

 

[rettofly]

Your comment smacks of pompous sarcasm. I wonder how many captains said the same about you when you before you moved to the left seat.

I see you caught on to my point.

My comment is not nearly as pompous and sarcastic as some of the comments I've heard (and seen posted) over the years from the young stallions champing at the bit to get the geezers out of the way.

For what it's worth, there were plenty of times when I was happy to learn from the guy or "gal" in the left seat. Since I got a late start, many of them were younger than I. It's called CRM and mentoring.