FAA ramp check, reverse extrapolation???

[apcooper]

If an inspector does a ramp check on you and gets to looking at the W&B data and notices the plane is 20lbs under gross. Lets say then he asks where you came from and you tell him you came from an arpt 300nm away. My question is can the inspector violate you for flying over gross eventhought this would be based on reverse extrapolation since obviously you must have taken off over gross eventhough you are legal when you land???

 

[slowto250]

Yep. Unless you can prove you bought fuel on arrival. This same concept has been used to violate crews whose oxygen read "Full" after lengthy, high altitude flights under pts. 121 or 135.

 

[bigD]

Not if you're flying a sailplane.

 

[slowto250]

BigD,

Good one. Wish I'd come up with it.

 

[fastandlow]

If an inspector does a ramp check on you and gets to looking at the W&B data and notices the plane is 20lbs under gross. Lets say then he asks where you came from and you tell him you came from an arpt 300nm away. My question is can the inspector violate you for flying over gross eventhought this would be based on reverse extrapolation since obviously you must have taken off over gross eventhough you are legal when you land???

Your "friend" have something like this happen???

 

[PropsForward]

If your W&B showed you departing 300nm ago over gross then your caught.

If your W&B showes you fixing to depart with cargo and he knows you did not take on fuel. Who is to say you did fly from there empty? Depends on how bad you have hung yourself with your own paperwork.

 

[FN FAL]

If an inspector does a ramp check on you and gets to looking at the W&B data and notices the plane is 20lbs under gross. Lets say then he asks where you came from and you tell him you came from an arpt 300nm away. My question is can the inspector violate you for flying over gross eventhought this would be based on reverse extrapolation since obviously you must have taken off over gross eventhough you are legal when you land???

Are you talking about a 135 flight or a 91 flight.

Don't quote me on this one, but IF I was on a part 91 flight and was being ramp checked, I'd show him my pilot documentation . I'd let him see the airworthiness certificate though the window of the locked aircraft door... because he's going to need a subpoena in order to put his greasy mits on that master switch.

135 flight? He's going to need some paperwork handy to board the aircraft, but he's well within his rights to see a weight and balance performed by the 135 PIC on a 135 flight leg in aircraft that require one. I would say that if you landed 20 lbs under gross and took off over gross from your departure airport and documented that fact...you deserve what you have coming to you.

 

[transpac]

Are you talking about a 135 flight or a 91 flight.

Don't quote me on this one, but IF I was on a part 91 flight and was being ramp checked, I'd show him my pilot documentation . I'd let him see the airworthiness certificate though the window of the locked aircraft door... because he's going to need a subpoena in order to put his greasy mits on that master switch.

135 flight? He's going to need some paperwork handy to board the aircraft, but he's well within his rights to see a weight and balance performed by the 135 PIC on a 135 flight leg in aircraft that require one. I would say that if you landed 20 lbs under gross and took off over gross from your departure airport and documented that fact...you deserve what you have coming to you.

The inspector isn't limited to seeing only paperwork during a ramp check, the entire aircraft is fair game. And, he already has a subpoena. It's called Section 709 and it gives the Administrator the authority to inspect any person, part, record, or aircraft subject to FAA regulation anywhere and at anytime. There's extra maintenance and record keeping required under Part 135, but the FAA's responsibility and authority are exactly the same whether the operation is under 91, 135, or 121. Try what you suggest and the result could very well be the emergency suspension of your pilot certificate as well as the aircraft's airworthiness certificate.

 

[fastandlow]

The inspector isn't limited to seeing only paperwork during a ramp check, the entire aircraft is fair game. And, he already has a subpoena. It's called Section 709 and it gives the Administrator the authority to inspect any person, part, record, or aircraft subject to FAA regulation anywhere and at anytime. There's extra maintenance and record keeping required under Part 135, but the FAA's responsibility and authority are exactly the same whether the operation is under 91, 135, or 121. Try what you suggest and the result could very well be the emergency suspension of your pilot certificate as well as the aircraft's airworthiness certificate.

I disagree. Unless you really pi$$ off a safety inspector, I really doubt, based on my experience, they'll be fishing for pt. 91 operators like they would 121 and 135. Be polite, tactful and smart about it, and you could probably defer a lot of the information being requested during a pt. 91 ramp check to a point in time which would allow you to talk to a lawyer or get your own story straight (assuming you know you're already busted). If you think you got your stuff in order, then by all means, cooperate!

The plane and yourself may not go anywhere for a while if you're stuck with an illegal situation and trying to cover your bases digging up documents just use an excuse like "my mother has just had a heart attack and is intensive care - can I get your name and number and contact you about this tomorrow morning?" (read delaying). But in my experience, it's not as dire as the picture you paint.

As far as the "tools" available to the FAA safety inspectors, they could request an emergency suspension and prescribe a 44709 action for essentially anything anyway.

I suggest searching the internet for "ramp check" and "FAA enforcement action" for more and better documented scenarios. Join AOPA and search their web site. They have some very good info on what's reasonable and what's not.

Last, I know it's repeating, just be polite and say nothing more than necessary! They can use "uncooperativness" against you!

 

[minitour]

They can and will check anything they want to during a rampcheck. The only thing they can't do is delay yourdeparture. So get in the plane, grab your clearance and then ifyou see someone coming up "uh sorry we're on a clearance gotta go bye".

Story from ground school:
A few years ago an isntructor was taking a student up for a firstflight (kinda a discovery flight) and he happened to be getting a rampcheck that day. Inspector walks out, checks out the documents,W&B, paperwork is all good. Then he says, "so what are youboys off to do today?" Instructor was thinking very clearly andsaid "I don't know, it depends, we may not go up". When asked hejust said "it depends on how our ground on preflight continues".

Turns out the next thing the fed checked was the fluid in the compass,it wasn't full. Saved the instructor a bust becasue he didn'tadmit to being ready to blast off. Examiner just asked "did youcheck the compass yet".

I guess the instructor was quite a smart guy and got "around" a fewthings by thinking quickly and not answering any questions directly.

But anyway, to get back on subject, yeah they can check anything theywant to wrt the airplane. They've gotta give you time to presentthe maintenence logs and such, but watch that compass...it's got to befull (no air bubbles)...

-mini

 

[transpac]

I disagree. Unless you really pi$$ off a safety inspector, I really doubt, based on my experience, they'll be fishing for pt. 91 operators like they would 121 and 135. Be polite, tactful and smart about it, and you could probably defer a lot of the information being requested during a pt. 91 ramp check to a point in time which would allow you to talk to a lawyer or get your own story straight (assuming you know you're already busted). If you think you got your stuff in order, then by all means, cooperate!

The plane and yourself may not go anywhere for a while if you're stuck with an illegal situation and trying to cover your bases digging up documents just use an excuse like "my mother has just had a heart attack and is intensive care - can I get your name and number and contact you about this tomorrow morning?" (read delaying). But in my experience, it's not as dire as the picture you paint.

As far as the "tools" available to the FAA safety inspectors, they could request an emergency suspension and prescribe a 44709 action for essentially anything anyway.

I suggest searching the internet for "ramp check" and "FAA enforcement action" for more and better documented scenarios. Join AOPA and search their web site. They have some very good info on what's reasonable and what's not.

Exactly what are you disagreeing with? Are you saying that refusing a ramp inspection won't P.O. an inspector? I'm no longer with the FAA, but I was there long enough to know what tools are available. Normally Part 91 operators are pretty much left alone, but I guarantee that had someone locked an aircraft door and refused me entry, every tool available would have been broken out. I left out the seven-day aircraft grounding authority an inspector can impose while the lawyers process the permanent orders.

 

[transpac]

They can and will check anything they want to during a rampcheck. The only thing they can't do is delay yourdeparture. So get in the plane, grab your clearance and then ifyou see someone coming up "uh sorry we're on a clearance gotta go bye".

Actually they can and sometimes will delay a departure. The only mention of it in FAA handbooks is that every effort should be made to not delay a departure without good reason. The definition of good reason is in the mind of the beholder.

 

[fastandlow]

Exactly what are you disagreeing with? Are you saying that refusing a ramp inspection won't P.O. an inspector? I'm no longer with the FAA, but I was there long enough to know what tools are available. Normally Part 91 operators are pretty much left alone, but I guarantee that had someone locked an aircraft door and refused me entry, every tool available would have been broken out. I left out the seven-day aircraft grounding authority an inspector can impose while the lawyers process the permanent orders.

Wasn't saying lock the doors and be obviously resistant to interaction. That would be foolish. I was envisioning a situation where someone was approached on the ramp with a known "problem" in the aircraft. Interact as much as you can, then, if necessary bail with some excuse! I don't believe any FAA operating orders allow entering a closed plane with the owners or operators leaving the area. This would allow them to get their things in order, call a lawyer or whatever.

Maybe I misspoke above, but this is what I was trying to communicate. As far as disagreeing, I disagree that the situation should have to come to 709 rides or emergency suspensions while standing there on the ramp! Might happen the following week or month, depending on the situation and how it's handled though.

FWIW - don't get into this situation in the first place! Dealing with stuff like this will take years off your life - it's very, very bad! I've never been involved with the faa regarding a violation but have had other administrative dealings that were, well, educational.

 

[minitour]

Actually they can and sometimes will delay a departure.The only mention of it in FAA handbooks is that every effort should bemade to not delay a departure without good reason. The definition ofgood reason is in the mind of the beholder.

That's interesting to know...do you have a linkey to thehandbook? I'd love to show my ground instructor. He'spretty big on ramp checks, inspections, regs, aerodynamics, ...welljust about anything... but yeah we spent like 3 days on getting rampchecked... so if there's a reference I could show him I think he'd geta kick out of it (especially since he just told us a story of himshutting the door on an examiner not a month ago).

-mini

 

[transpac]

Wasn't saying lock the doors and be obviously resistant to interaction. That would be foolish. I was envisioning a situation where someone was approached on the ramp with a known "problem" in the aircraft. Interact as much as you can, then, if necessary bail with some excuse! I don't believe any FAA operating orders allow entering a closed plane with the owners or operators leaving the area. This would allow them to get their things in order, call a lawyer or whatever.

Maybe I misspoke above, but this is what I was trying to communicate. As far as disagreeing, I disagree that the situation should have to come to 709 rides or emergency suspensions while standing there on the ramp! Might happen the following week or month, depending on the situation and how it's handled though.

FWIW - don't get into this situation in the first place! Dealing with stuff like this will take years off your life - it's very, very bad! I've never been involved with the faa regarding a violation but have had other administrative dealings that were educational.

Couldn't agree more! But, bad advice has led some pilots in the past to escalate a minor event into a full-blown legal battle.

One example: Early in my career I met an airplane on the ramp to interview a pilot who was reported by ATC to be unable to maintain his assigned IFR altitude within 500 ft. Two men had already deplaned and were in the FBO when I arrived. Both men refused to identify themselves, but both insisted they were passengers, saying a third person who's name they couldn't recall was the PIC. Both gentlemen were known by name to the FBO staff and were known to be pilots. Further, the lineman said only two people got off the plane. The IFR clearance was a pop-up, so no written flight plan was available. Both individuals then left the premises via taxi. The plane was registered to a corporation, but no one there was reachable by phone.

After a conference call with the FSDO Manager and the Regional Counsel, an order suspending both men's pilot certificates pending a 609 ride was issued by the Regional Counsel and faxed to the FBO for delivery. About an hour later a Deputy U.S. Marshal showed up with a chain and an order of seizure for the airplane. The plane was chained to the ramp and declared to be the property of the U.S. Government.

Both men later failed 609 rides, and their instrument ratings were revoked. Months later one of the men (who also turned out to be the owner of the corporation that owned the plane) admitted to being the PIC and paid a civil penalty. The plane was eventually returned to the corporation.

This problem would likely have been resolved with remedial training if everyone had been honest and cooperative up front.

 

[fastandlow]

That's interesting to know...do you have a linkey to thehandbook? I'd love to show my ground instructor. He'spretty big on ramp checks, inspections, regs, aerodynamics, ...welljust about anything... but yeah we spent like 3 days on getting rampchecked... so if there's a reference I could show him I think he'd geta kick out of it (especially since he just told us a story of himshutting the door on an examiner not a month ago).

-mini

FAA Order 8700.1 Change 6 Chapter 56 Conduct A FAR Part 91 Ramp Inspection

http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8700/8700_vol2/2_056_00.pdf

 

[fastandlow]

(snip)Two men had already deplaned and were in the FBO when I arrived. Both men refused to identify themselves, but both insisted they were passengers, saying a third person who's name they couldn't recall was the PIC.(snip)

NEVER lie. This gets back to saying things that will hurt you!

(snip) About an hour later a Deputy U.S. Marshal showed up with a chain and an order of seizure for the airplane. The plane was chained to the ramp and declared to be the property of the U.S. Government.(snip)

Under what authority was the plane/their personal property seized? Now that sounds on the surface to be clearly an abuse of authority.

 

[FN FAL]

The inspector isn't limited to seeing only paperwork during a ramp check, the entire aircraft is fair game. And, he already has a subpoena. It's called Section 709 and it gives the Administrator the authority to inspect any person, part, record, or aircraft subject to FAA regulation anywhere and at anytime. There's extra maintenance and record keeping required under Part 135, but the FAA's responsibility and authority are exactly the same whether the operation is under 91, 135, or 121. Try what you suggest and the result could very well be the emergency suspension of your pilot certificate as well as the aircraft's airworthiness certificate.

Yea, sure...okay bub.

 

[fastandlow]

Yea, sure...okay bub.

He's right. Take a look at US Code 49.44709. Clearly unconstitutional and open ended. It's been fought as such, but in the long run has been upheld. I've researched this extensively. "709" (old 609) gives the FAA almost limitless power.

You may pass a "ramp check" with flying colors, but for some reason the inspector feels that you pose a risk and need a 709 ride. You take the ride - risking a bust - or your certificates may well all be revoked. What's wrong witha little 709 ride?! You're a safe pilot, right! Kind of like a witch trial if you ask me... I mean, if she's innocent, she'll sink - right?!

(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00044709----000-.html

 

[FN FAL]

He's right. Take a look at US Code 49.44709. Clearly unconstitutional and open ended. It's been fought as such, but in the long run has been upheld. I've researched this extensively. "709" (old 609) gives the FAA almost limitless power.

You may pass a "ramp check" with flying colors, but for some reason the inspector feels that you pose a risk and need a 709 ride. You take the ride - risking a bust - or your certificates may well all be revoked. What's wrong witha little 709 ride?! You're a safe pilot, right! Kind of like a witch trial if you ask me... I mean, if she's innocent, she'll sink - right?!

(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00044709----000-.html

http://www.globalair.com/discussions/legal_services/article.asp?msgID=22

Aircraft Documents In The Aircraft

Similar to the requirement that you have certain personal documents in your possession, the aircraft you fly also needs to contain certain documents. The inspector may want to review the aircraft documents during the ramp check. However, an inspector cannot inspect the interior of your aircraft without consent. Consequently, rather than giving consent, I recommend that you personally remove the requested documents from the aircraft and give them to the inspector.