FAA ramp check, reverse extrapolation???

[transpac]

NEVER lie. This gets back to saying things that will hurt you!

Under what authority was the plane/their personal property seized? Now that sounds on the surface to be clearly an abuse of authority.

The legal language is above my pay grade and training. But, there's a legal basis for the government to seize assets to satisfy an imposed penalty. In civil aviation cases when an airplane can be identified as being used during a violation but a pilot cannot, the airplane itself becomes liable for any penalty imposed. It doesn't happen every day in aviation, but it does happen. Normally, the penalty is much less than the worth of the aircraft so the pilot comes forward and pays the penalty and the airplane gets returned

 

[fastandlow]

The legal language is above my pay grade and training. But, there's a legal basis for the government to seize assets to satisfy an imposed penalty. In civil aviation cases when an airplane can be identified as being used during a violation but a pilot cannot, the airplane itself becomes liable for any penalty imposed. It doesn't happen every day in aviation, but it does happen. Normally, the penalty is much less than the worth of the aircraft so the pilot comes forward and pays the penalty and the airplane gets returned

OK - related to the non-payment of the civil penaly. I thought it was a result of the faa violation.

Excellent link, FN FAL.

 

[transpac]

http://www.globalair.com/discussions/legal_services/article.asp?msgID=22

Aircraft Documents In The Aircraft

Similar to the requirement that you have certain personal documents in your possession, the aircraft you fly also needs to contain certain documents. The inspector may want to review the aircraft documents during the ramp check. However, an inspector cannot inspect the interior of your aircraft without consent. Consequently, rather than giving consent, I recommend that you personally remove the requested documents from the aircraft and give them to the inspector.

If the inspector only wants to see documents, it's not unreasonable to remove the documents to show him. However, if he wants to see the interior of the aircraft, deny him entry at your own risk. True, the owner or operator must consent to an interior inspection. (Unless the inspector is conducting an accident or NTSB-reportable incident investigation). But, denial of consent to inspect an aircraft's interior is going to generate other actions, mostly bad.

 

[100LL... Again!]

My answer (pt 91) would be that I took off within limits, and I discarded the w&b calculation at the departure airport.

 

[FN FAL]

I still say it's going to take a subpoena to turn on that master switch...and the inspector knows that and will not ask in a part 91 situation...he knows that, because he is forcing a situation where his actions are going to make you look non-compliant. There's no way in hell that the inspector can push you around untill he makes you look non-compliant and then badger you with a ride if you don't let him in your plane.

[size=+1]About The Author . . .[/size]

Phillip J. Kolczynski , manages his own law firm in Irvine, (Orange County) California. He has a national practice, concentrating in aviation, product liability and business litigation in federal and state courts. Phil teaches evidence, product liability and aviation law at the Aviation Safety Program, School of Engineering, University Of Southern California. He chaired the 1990 ABA National Institute on Aviation Litigation in Washington, D.C., and has spoken nationally at numerous aviation litigation symposia.

​

Prior to moving to California in 1983, he was a trial attorney in the Aviation Unit, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C., and the Litigation Division, Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration, Washington, D.C. Phil graduated from Case Western Reserve School of Law, Cleveland, Ohio, in December, 1976, and attended college at Marquette University, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in 1969 where he held a Navy ROTC Full Scholarship. Before entering law school, he was a Marine Corps Captain and F-4 Phantom Pilot. He is a Commercial Pilot with instrument and multi-engine ratings.

[size=-1][/size][font=Geneva, Arial][size=-1]WHAT CAN AN FAA INSPECTOR CAN DEMAND TO SEE WITHOUT A SUBPOENA[/size][/font]

[font=Geneva, Arial][size=-1]Upon request, a properly credentialed FAA official may demand to see a pilot's licenses, airworthiness certificate and medical certificate and a copy of the pilot's log book (if he has it with him). An inspector cannot normally gain entry to search an aircraft operated under FAR Part 91, without authorization from the owner or operator but he may examine the aircraft from the outside and look through unshaded windows. Exceptions may exist where there is probable cause that a crime has been committed or in "border crossing" situations.[/size][/font]

 

[minitour]

My answer (pt 91) would be that I took offwithin limits, and I discarded the w&b calculation at the departureairport.

As in "oh yeah, I did my homework, but my dog ate it...it was an A+ paper though"??

How does that go over?

Fastandlow:
Thanks! I'll have to print that out for him, he's "good friends"with someone at the FSDo so I'm sure it won't come to anything, but atleast he'll know from now on that they can at the inspector'sdiscretion...

-mini

 

[FN FAL]

More on subpoena's and airmen's rights...notice down below that an attorney may be able to get an emergency restraining order to prevent an illegal search of your aircraft...

What Can An FAA Official Demand To See Without A Subpoena?

What may you be required to do without delay, where there has been no accident or criminal violation, upon presentation of the proper identification by an FAA or NTSB Official?

• Display your FAA Licenses.
• Show your current medical certificate.
• Present your airworthiness certificate.
• Allow a review of your Log Books, if you have them with you.
• If you run a FAA Licensed Commercial Business (such as under Part 135 or Part 121) - allow an FAA inspection of your aircraft. (Part 91 Operators do not normally have to grant access upon a mere verbal request).
• Permit an FAA inspection of aviation records if you are running a commercial aviation business under the authority of an FAA License.

If any FAA, NTSB or Law Enforcement Officer demands more from you verbally, politely refuse, until you have had an opportunity to check with an aviation lawyer - be VERY careful about giving statements.

What If You Are Served With A Subpoena?

If an FAA, NTSB, Law Enforcement Officer, or Government Official serves you with a subpoena or a search warrant in a situation where there has been no accident, you may have to comply immediately and allow an inspection of records, equipment, aircraft, and premises. Never physically obstruct a properly credentialed official. A law enforcement official may be able to conduct a search even without a subpoena in hot pursuit, emergencies, as long as he has "probable cause" to believe a crime has been committed. Regulatory agencies like the FAA can claim that aviation safety justifies an immediate search without a subpoena and with questionable "probable cause;" therefore, it is critical to contact an aviation lawyer as soon as possible. Your lawyer can insure whether:

• An Emergency Restraining Order should be sought preventing the search.
• A subpoena or search warrant was properly issued.
• The search does not exceed the scope of authority contained in the subpoena or search warrant.
• Original records needed to properly run a business, or validate an airman's right to operate are not surrendered or taken without proper authority.
• Collateral and incriminating evidence is not developed.
• Verbal statements about documents or equipment are not given without awareness of the privilege against self incrimination.

The purpose of these recommendations is not to impede the FAA's authority to regulate aviation; however, the careers and success of airman and business are at stake whenever the FAA investigates a possible violation. FAA License Holders are entitled to due process and other rights under federal and state law. Do not squander your rights by precipitous actions without advice of counsel.

About The Author . . .

Phillip J. Kolczynski , manages his own law firm in Irvine, (Orange County) California. He has a national practice, concentrating in aviation, product liability and business litigation in federal and state courts. Phil teaches evidence, product liability and aviation law at the Aviation Safety Program, School of Engineering, University Of Southern California. He chaired the 1990 ABA National Institute on Aviation Litigation in Washington, D.C., and has spoken nationally at numerous aviation litigation symposia.

Prior to moving to California in 1983, he was a trial attorney in the Aviation Unit, U.S. Department of Justice, Washington, D.C., and the Litigation Division, Office of the Chief Counsel, Federal Aviation Administration, Washington, D.C. Phil graduated from Case Western Reserve School of Law, Cleveland, Ohio, in December, 1976, and attended college at Marquette University, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in 1969 where he held a Navy ROTC Full Scholarship. Before entering law school, he was a Marine Corps Captain and F-4 Phantom Pilot. He is a Commercial Pilot with instrument and multi-engine ratings.

 

[Vector4fun]

I know of an airline pilot that has his Starduster Too seized, flown 25 miles to another airport, and locked up for about two years as I recall. Kind of a long, lawyer enriching attitude adjustment. As I understand it, he only saved his ATP and career through the intervention of the CP and an agreement to never fly the Too again. It was sold to another retired BN Captain.


All because he just couldn't resist the urge to demonstrate the Too's roll rate to the tower.(repeatedly).....

 

[HS125]

"Ramp Inspection Checklist" From the NBAA

Ramp Inspection Checklist

Ramp inspections or checks are customarily conducted as a normal surveillance activity, however, they may be conducted if an unsafe operation has been observed or ATC notifies the inspector of an unsafe operation. In any case the inspection must be conducted by an FAA aviation safety inspector who carries a photo identification card attesting to his status (ask to see it). Other important points:

• The inspector may not board any aircraft without the knowledge of the crew or operator.
• If the surveillance will delay a flight, the inspector should "use prudent judgment whether or not to continue."

A ramp inspection includes a look at both the pilots and the aircraft -- official documents pertaining to each are examined as is the condition of each. The general airworthiness of the aircraft is determined by inspecting the --

• Aircraft's exterior "in a manner similar to a preflight inspection"
• Seats and seat belts for installation and condition
• Current VOR equipment check
• ELT battery expiration date
• Aircraft identification (data) plate

If the condition of the pilot creates a "reason to suspect a pilot or other required crewmember [is] under the influence of alcohol" the inspector must take further action to prove or disprove this suspicion.

Pilot documents to be inspected include airman and medical certificates, for both authenticity and appropriateness for the type of operation conducted. The FAA order also states that recency of experience (BFR, PIC proficiency, instrument competency) should be determined if pilot logbooks are available. (Note that neither aircraft nor airman logbooks are required to be present for flight.)
Aircraft documents required include:

• Airworthiness certificate
• Registration certificate (issued to the current owner)
• Radio station license (note expiration date)
• Airplane Flight Manual (current and approved)
• Weight and balance information in the AFM (current and accurate)
• Minimum Equipment List - should have for turbine-powered aircraft
• Copy of the aircraft lease agreement (if applicable)
• Category II/III authorization and manual (if applicable)
• North Atlantic Minimum Navigation Performance Specification (if applicable)
• Pertinent and current aeronautical charts

Large and turbine-powered multi-engine aircraft (FAR Part 91 Subpart F) require additional items:

• Aircraft emergency checklist
• One engine inoperative climb performance data
• Flashlight (2 D-cells)
• Overwater emergency equipment ("if the operator conducts overwater operations")
• Aural speed warning device (transport category aircraft) -- "in operating condition"
• Smoking and seat belt signs -- "in operable condition"
• Altitude alerting system (turbojet aircraft only) -- test operation

"The inspector should also bear in mind that he or she may not be able to complete all items on every ramp inspection," according to the Inspector's Handbook. In actual practice the ramp check usually involves a casual walk-around inspection and a fairly detailed inspection of the paperwork mentioned above.

 

[TrafficInSight]

Seats and seat belts for installation and condition.

This includes the TSO tag on the belts. They'll look for these because it's easy to bust you on it.

 

[transpac]

More on subpoena's and airmen's rights...notice down below that an attorney may be able to get an emergency restraining order to prevent an illegal search of your aircraft...

What Mr. Kolczynski writes may well be possible. There's probably a judge somewhere who'll grant a restraining order to keep the sun from rising. However, I've never seen or heard of a case wherein a 609/709 inspection/reevaluation was held to be illegal by the courts. Don't know if it's still true, but a few years ago this information was part of the inspector indoc course. IHMO, a much smarter way of dealing with the issue is to undergo the inspection and then go to court to get relief. That way you still have a pilot and airworthiness certificate during the years the case will get dragged out on appeal.

 

[TurboS7]

I had the FAA try to violate us for being 18lbs over gross. We made the point to the lawyers that they did not use certified scales when they weighed everything. The FAA ran from that one as fast as they could.

 

[FN FAL]

Ramp Inspection Checklist

Ramp inspections or checks are customarily conducted as a normal surveillance activity, however, they may be conducted if an unsafe operation has been observed or ATC notifies the inspector of an unsafe operation. In any case the inspection must be conducted by an FAA aviation safety inspector who carries a photo identification card attesting to his status (ask to see it). Other important points:...

..."The inspector should also bear in mind that he or she may not be able to complete all items on every ramp inspection," according to the Inspector's Handbook. In actual practice the ramp check usually involves a casual walk-around inspection and a fairly detailed inspection of the paperwork mentioned above.

I was riding 135 FO in a Citation once and we got ramped, in fact they were gunning for us. The nice lady got everything she wanted and she stood with both feet on the tarmac to get it.

She got to see the life jackets, the manifest with weight and balance, our pilot credentials, the airworthiness certificate, the radio license, aircraft registration, the flashlight.

She never stepped foot on the Citation...nor did she ask. This story is funnier than I can say here...but if you come and jump out of plane with me and have some drinks, I'll tell you what Paul Harvey says is, "the rest of the story".

My current operator is pretty good, we do things by the book and "safety before schedule" is not only the creedo, it's how we git'r done around here.

One day I land at my usual layover with the Caravan and out pops a guy in a suit from around the corner. I'm thinking its either a mooney driver that don't know where to park his plane or it's, EGADS the dreaded RAMP CHECK!

Sure enough, suit walks up and pulls out his credentials and states he's doing ramp checks. I ask if he wants to see a wt/bal, some aircraft credentials, my 135 manual, a flashlight?

He says no...I just need to see your pilot's certificate and medical. As he stands safely on the ramp, he writes down what he needs from my pilot stuff. He then hands those things back and then points to the "FedEx" logo on the tail of the Caravan and tells me, "We're real familiar with your operations...you guys do a great job!"

He then points at the Superior Metro getting fueled and says, "But I would like to talk to those guys! Have you seen them around?"

I have been through quite a few ramp checks, including one where Maintenance Inspectors were also there to look at the airworthiness of aircraft. Guess what? After landing there, the post flight revealed a broken exhaust bracket on the caravan stack. The call in contract mechanic was repairing the aircraft as me and the fed did a weight and balance on the load being put in my aircraft. The inspector never even asked what was going on and the airworthiness guys had already gone through three of our other caravans and were bored. So they were over at some poor 135 pax guy's plane that had just flown in long enough to drop passengers...and it looked like things were getting pretty interesting over there.

Back to the original questioners problem or hypothetical...first of all, I don't advocate breaking the rules, nor do advocate "hassling the man". But I have never been asked to light up an airplane during a normal ramp check during Part 91 or 135 operations and if I was flying privately part 91, on general principle alone, I would refuse the boarding of my aircraft during regular ramp check operations.

Nothing rude about it...I don't waive my Fourth Amendment rights for nobody and as far as issuing statements; the Fed can't make you say a word you don't want to. You have the right to excercise the Fifth amendment by keeping your yap shut. Just don't expect to get your enforcement action tossed out on appeal because you felt your Fifth Amendment rights were violated during the ramp check...because it's too late then. You don't have to say nothing and if you do say something it can come back to haunt you.

In my day to day flying of 135 operations...if they got the form filled out to board my plane, more power to em, "welcome aboard!". We don't fly broke or overweight planes, so most likely they will find themselves bored and most certainly they will not enjoy that pilot ass smell in them caravans.

As a post script, do you really think I care if some FBO gets it's aircraft sanctioned in a seizure by the feds after a ramp check? Think about it...I can walk away from that plane with it's doors locked and Mr. FBO can deal with it.