FAA needs to hear that more than 8 hours flying per day will not make the skys safer

coogebeachhotel

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I do not believe that more than 8 hours of flying will make aviation safer. If a 8 hour day turns into a 9 hour day and one more leg gets added this reg is BS. I think there should be no more than 5 legs a day and no more than 12 hours duty. These people have no idea the amount of stress the legs combined with duty time puts on the body.

Leave flight time where it is at 8hrs
Reduced duty day for two man cockpit to 12 hrs
Max T/0 and Landings 5
No flight legs going into redye or after redeye
No red eye will end past 9am crew base local time with two man crew
 

tzskipper

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I do not believe that more than 8 hours of flying will make aviation safer. If a 8 hour day turns into a 9 hour day and one more leg gets added this reg is BS. I think there should be no more than 5 legs a day and no more than 12 hours duty. These people have no idea the amount of stress the legs combined with duty time puts on the body.

Leave flight time where it is at 8hrs
Reduced duty day for two man cockpit to 12 hrs
Max T/0 and Landings 5
No flight legs going into redye or after redeye
No red eye will end past 9am crew base local time with two man crew

How about first simply standardizing Domestic/Flag/Supplemental rules?

Maybe then the changes will make sense. The body clock and fatigue factors don't change simply because you cross a border or fly charter.

Skipper
 

brownie

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It's not whats a right thing to do is what the big corporate america wants those senators in thier back pockets to say.
 

JoeMerchant

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Wouldn't it be safer to have an 8 hour duty day with 6 hours of flying per day? That would be safer.....wouldn't it?
 

Networ-King

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I do not believe that more than 8 hours of flying will make aviation safer. If a 8 hour day turns into a 9 hour day and one more leg gets added this reg is BS. I think there should be no more than 5 legs a day and no more than 12 hours duty. These people have no idea the amount of stress the legs combined with duty time puts on the body.

Leave flight time where it is at 8hrs
Reduced duty day for two man cockpit to 12 hrs
Max T/0 and Landings 5
No flight legs going into redye or after redeye
No red eye will end past 9am crew base local time with two man crew

Yeah good luck with that. How about we all get paid 500 bucks an hour while we're dreaming? Have you ever flown under the CAA rules or any other rule other than the FAA rules that you're so used to? 16 hours of duty, 8 hours of flying, unlimited take offs and landings and min rest of 8 hours??????????? Who gives a sh!t about the flight time? It's all about the duty time.... you get more tired sitting around for 3 hours waiting for your next flight rather than flying the whole time as long as the duty time matches the your start time for the day.

Under the CAA rules, and I'm a little fuzzy about it, but the basic jest of it is that if you start before 6 am then you can only be on duty for 9 hours. They don't care if you fly 8:59 minutes just as long as you're on the ground at 9 hours of duty and that's only with 2 legs allowed. After 6 am and before 9 am you're alotted 11 or 12 hours or so of duty and 4 sectors and after 9 am you get 13 hours of duty... again... I'm a bit fuzzy, been too long, but it worked freaking great. Either way, it would be a good thing, you just have to get used to it. Oh yeah... there is one little thing with the CAA... captains discretions of 3 hours and that's just to bring the plane back to base, but with CRM, it's a crew thingie.... hope this helps a bit. Change isn't always a bad thing.... I'm sure that the airlines will find the loop holes and do what they want in the end....

Net
 

waveflyer

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+1 flight time does not make me tired- duty day does- rest time inconsistency does- and if I get paid for being in the air- you bet I want to maximize my pay per day- that equals more days off which is the biggest fatigue factor IMO.
 

igneousy2

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It seems to me that ALPA is got one arm tied around their nut-sack as they can't seem to seperate protecting the commuters from making flying safer...so all of their energy is going to protecting the commuters at the expense of making any meaningful gains in safety.

Am I the only one tired of giving up stuff for commuters?

Later,

Damn it - I want my R days back!!!
 

atpcliff

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Hi!

I think you are quoting the British CAA rules. There are lots of CAAs in different countries.

Here in Kenya, I am flying under the Kenya CAA Intntl rules. Duty day is 15 hours, but MINIMUM rest is 11 hours, NO reduced rest, and if you do a duty day of over 14 hours, it is 16 hours of rest. Over 10, less than 11 hours duty is 12 hours rest.

I think increasing the flight time from 8-9 or 10 hours is no big deal. Reducing the duty day, along with increasing the rest, and decreasing the duty day for more TOs/Ls, and early/late starts is what is important, and it sounds like that is what will happen.

cliff
NBO
 

Networ-King

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Hi!

I think you are quoting the British CAA rules. There are lots of CAAs in different countries.

Here in Kenya, I am flying under the Kenya CAA Intntl rules. Duty day is 15 hours, but MINIMUM rest is 11 hours, NO reduced rest, and if you do a duty day of over 14 hours, it is 16 hours of rest. Over 10, less than 11 hours duty is 12 hours rest.

I think increasing the flight time from 8-9 or 10 hours is no big deal. Reducing the duty day, along with increasing the rest, and decreasing the duty day for more TOs/Ls, and early/late starts is what is important, and it sounds like that is what will happen.

cliff
NBO
Cliff,

My apologies... yes you are correct sir.... I was quoting.... eeerr.... half a s s quoting the "British CAA" rules. Too lazy to google it and put the actual flight time/DUTY time limitations on here, but I think we're all on the same page. Bottom line is that flight time means nothing... duty time is the most important, along with number of landings depending of your start time.

Net
 

crxpilot

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Hi!

I think you are quoting the British CAA rules. There are lots of CAAs in different countries.

Here in Kenya, I am flying under the Kenya CAA Intntl rules. Duty day is 15 hours, but MINIMUM rest is 11 hours, NO reduced rest, and if you do a duty day of over 14 hours, it is 16 hours of rest. Over 10, less than 11 hours duty is 12 hours rest.

I think increasing the flight time from 8-9 or 10 hours is no big deal. Reducing the duty day, along with increasing the rest, and decreasing the duty day for more TOs/Ls, and early/late starts is what is important, and it sounds like that is what will happen.

cliff
NBO
Kenya has rules??? And if you break them are there really any people to enforce them?
 

crxpilot

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The way some people are thinking, you are going to "rule" yourself down to a much smaller paycheck if you are wanting a "9-5" duty day. Maybe you might want to go get a job at a bank if the flying fatigues you so much.
 

densoo

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Under the CAA rules, and I'm a little fuzzy about it, but the basic jest of it is that if you start before 6 am then you can only be on duty for 9 hours. They don't care if you fly 8:59 minutes just as long as you're on the ground at 9 hours of duty and that's only with 2 legs allowed. After 6 am and before 9 am you're alotted 11 or 12 hours or so of duty and 4 sectors and after 9 am you get 13 hours of duty... again... I'm a bit fuzzy, been too long, but it worked freaking great. Either way, it would be a good thing, you just have to get used to it. Oh yeah... there is one little thing with the CAA... captains discretions of 3 hours and that's just to bring the plane back to base, but with CRM, it's a crew thingie.... hope this helps a bit. Change isn't always a bad thing.... I'm sure that the airlines will find the loop holes and do what they want in the end....

Net
Here's the British Reg. Paragraph 13.3 has the chart. The longest duty day is 14 hours based on one leg of flying if it started between 8am and 1259pm. If you move outside that start time and/or increase the numbers of legs, the duty day gets shorter, all the way down to 9 hours maximum.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF
 

JoeMerchant

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Here's the British Reg. Paragraph 13.3 has the chart. The longest duty day is 14 hours based on one leg of flying if it started between 8am and 1259pm. If you move outside that start time and/or increase the numbers of legs, the duty day gets shorter, all the way down to 9 hours maximum.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF
Those rules would decimate the regional schedule....No more 3 day trips, and probably more 5 day trips...Senior schedules would lose 4 days off a month.
 

waveflyer

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Crx you're an idiot. And it goes w/o saying that Joey is too. Hoping the direction it goes is in line with the rest of the logical world.
 

JoeMerchant

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Crx you're an idiot. And it goes w/o saying that Joey is too. Hoping the direction it goes is in line with the rest of the logical world.
We're idiots for wanting to keep 3 on, 4 off schedules?
 

waveflyer

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So you got yours don't you Joey?

What about all your pilots getting run ragged by regulations that don't remotely address fatigue? And your assuming, btw, what changes would be made to your schedule- that's why you're an idiot.... Well, one reason.
 

atpcliff

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Hi!

JM, like most humans, does not want to change.

Most of the negativity about the impending FAA Flight/Duty/Rest rule changes, the US Health Care System changes, and Obama being President (after 8 yrs of Republican rule, and from a WHITE guy to a BLACK guy), are all the same.

Change is scary, and people do not like it, due to a lot of different factors.

Even when change is obviously for the good, to dramatically improve something, MANY people will be vehemently against it.

What IS ironic, is that our universe is DESIGNED by God for MASSIVE change, all the time! Here we are, in the midst of a Universe that often has dramatic and radical change, often daily, and we want everything to be the same, every day. It causes a lot of angst.

Republican leadership are very adept at playing on people's fears, so that they can control people, and keep the money rolling in! Democratic leadership also do it, but to a lesser degree, and they are not as good at it.

cliff
NBO
 
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Blue Dude

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Republican leadership are very adept at playing on people's fears, so that they can control people, and keep the money rolling in! Democratic leadership also do it, but to a lesser degree, and they are not as good at it.
Off topic rant: Hah! They *all* do it, and they are masters of it. Republicans play up national security fears. Democrats play up cuts in entitlements, "tax breaks for the rich", etc. if they're not reelected. They all use fear to spend our money on their pet projects and/or themselves. They all do nothing but grow government, no matter what they say. They all are interested in growing their own power and restricting our freedoms.

In short, they all suck hard. In 2010 and 2012, fire them all. We can hardly do worse.

Back on topic, sorry.
 
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pilotyip

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So you got yours don't you Joey?

What about all your pilots getting run ragged by regulations that don't remotely address fatigue? And your assuming, btw, what changes would be made to your schedule- that's why you're an idiot.... Well, one reason.

I agree bring it on, But I ask what is the limit of ultimate crew rest? Everyone only works when they feel rested; they can call fatigue at any time during a trip, and refuse any assignment because they are not rested? How about a stopping a non-stop JFK-LAX at OMA, because they feel fatiqued from that exhausting 10 hour jumpseat commute to pick that trip at JFK. How about no flying between 2200 and 0800, make it against the law? How about those 16 hour int'l flights? Will there now be stops and crew changes at BIRK? Followed by a RO2N to be fully rested for that last leg into Europe. I have no dog in this flight, but "unintended consequences" may have devastating effects on the industry.
 
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