FAA changes SFO Landing Policies

[BLUE BAYOU]

If I'm cheating on a written test, I'm looking at the Asian guys paper. If I want to survive an actual emergency, I want a gringo flying that plane. It's not racist to acknowledge that very real cultural differences exist and for whatever reason, many Asian cultures don't mix ideally with Aviation.

I think on some level, we all know this is true.

I guess there weren't any Jap Aces in the Pacific during WWII... Ehhh, Boyington, Ehhh Riceball!!! Your blanket approach to the Asian culture is insulting to all. Aviation accidents can occur to anyone (race, gender, transgender)...

 

[ASADFW7]

The correlation is not racist, it is documented. It may not be presented in a fashion that does not offend everyone but it is factually correct. Overly respectful authority cultures have safety problems.

 

[Zdriver]

wolf king is right this is not a race, culture or nationally thing...its an AB Initiro thing.. air carriers trained in this manner should not be allowed flights to the us.

 

[Diesel-9]

Maybe they could have these guys fly approaches into SFO to 28R while another guy is on 28L. Kind of in a fighting wing position, a poor mans formation landing. At least get them feet dry...

 

[Dan Roman]

wolf king is right this is not a race, culture or nationally thing...its an AB Initiro thing.. air carriers trained in this manner should not be allowed flights to the us.

You mean like Lufthansa?
They are an extremely successful, very safe airline that flies just about everywhere.
Asian American pilots are just as good as anyone else.

So I would submit that it is a culture at these Asian carriers that has a very twisted heiarchical mentality and is still light years behind in basic CRM skills.
If half the horror stories I've heard of authoritarian check pilots at Asian carriers are true than that may provide a clue to what happened at Asiana. A check pilot that was bent on "testing" his candidate more than importing helpful information and creating a learning invironment could create an unsafe situation when the need to work together as a crew is needed. Couple that to a pilot getting 10 hours of pop quizzes from the same guy as they crossed the Pacific and you could have a guy so tired that he could screw up a simple VFR landing.

 

[SIG600]

You mean like Lufthansa?
They are an extremely successful, very safe airline that flies just about everywhere.
Asian American pilots are just as good as anyone else.

Or Air France 447, perfect example of basic airmanship. Just like the Asiana crash. Ab Initio has huge flaws.

No one said "Asian American." They said Asian. And this isn't a race discussion, it's a cultural one. Like ASADFW said, you can't be overly respectful of authority and have a completely open safety culture at the same time.

 

[Dan Roman]

you can't be overly respectful of authority and have a completely open safety culture at the same time.

I believe that was the point of my post, was my writing that unclear?

 

[livin'thesim]

There are always some aspergery retards that love to shriek "racism", while the rest of us roll their eyes.

For it to be "racist", we would have to be implying that there was some inherent defect in Korean people, and even then, it might not be demonstrably racist.

The Koreans have selected a cockpit culture and business culture that does not work as well with aviation safety as modern Western nations do.

American culture of the 1800s would probably be just as bad, for example.

Point is, the Koreans have adopted an attitude toward aviation that is based on their social culture, which is very ego-oriented and does not allow for admitting mistakes in a goal-oriented path to safety.

Instead, it is paramount that the human ego be protected from embarrassment, with aviation safety taking a subordinate role to the preservation of social status.


Americans and Europeans, while imperfect, are more comfortable (ON AVERAGE, RETARDS) with saying "oops, I screwed that up". This acceptance of human fallibility is CRUCIAL to CRM and having a safe flight environment.

But for those whose emotional hemorrhoids are already itching and burning to scream "racism" at the top of their quavering lungs, relax, lollolzlzl!!

The gun-slinging machismo of the American West would have been just as dangerous, and them was some white guys!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

When I was doing OE at a KOREAN airline, I was told that I shouldn't ask questions. This is during OE, mind you!

Their logic was that I should already know the answer and if I asked a Training Captain a question he didn't know the answer to, he would be insulted. And then I will have shamed him, and in turn me and my family. Or something like that.

 

[PSL]

And yet, somehow pride protected is far better than getting to the truth and the prioritization of safety. If that doesn't give everyone who has to live in the reality of those cockpits a moment or pause, IT SHOULD.

In 20 + years of check airman work, I told every person I flew with that they probably knew the books far better than me (and we were far better off for it). My job was to provide an atmosphere where the IOE pilot could learn SAFELY.

Ego is for the golf course (or other field of competition).

The goal is to get from A to B, safely; PERIOD.

If you are more concerned with who is right (honor) rather than what is right, you have no business transporting people in any form.

 

[livin'thesim]

I wonder if they have an Embarrassment Management System instead of a Safety Management System?


Instead of the ASAP, maybe they have an ESAP (Ego-Salving Action Program)?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

They have punitive FOQA including a letter of apology and time off without pay.

This is an example of what can happen at a Korean-based airline:

A friend (American, FO-PNF) on was flying in to an island airfield in the Pacific. Captain (Korean, PF) wasn't paying attention to the progress and started down late. They try to catch up and on final it isn't looking good. At 1000', they aren't stabilized, so they go around. They bring it back around, land, no problems. Good call.

Later that week, my friend gets a call saying he busted FOQA.

Why?

Because on the Go-Around, they dipped below 1000'. . . :smash:

I guess they need a DDA(H) for Stabilized Approach Criteria.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

One more story about Korean aviation decision making:

My friend told me about this:

He is FO-PNF flying in to Pusan-Gimhae. They're #2 for the ILS and the weather is at minimums. The #1 airline doesn't get the field in sight, and goes around. My friend's flight doesn't get the runway and goes around, too.

Both flights hold for a while until the weather comes up a bit. Both flights start getting vectors for the approach. #1 airline goes missed again. My friend's flight gets the runway insight, but the CA-PF goes around. . .

Why?

The CA explained that if the #1 airline went missed, it would be suspicious if they did land. . .

 

[livin'thesim]

Sounds like a retarded, backward, foolish culture.

Yep, Westerners are quite superior to that culture. Punitive FOQA? What a bunch of f-wads.

I think that their harda## hero-pilot culture is indicative of a deep sense of inferiority they feel toward Westerners. Insecurity usually leads to this kind of we-don't-make-mistakes attitude.

Acknowledging the fallibility of human beings and the fact that we all make mistakes is the first step toward curing those mistakes.

Idiots.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Sounds like a retarded, backward, foolish culture.

Yep, Westerners are quite superior to that culture. Punitive FOQA? What a bunch of f-wads.

I was always second on the crew bus or crew limo, after the CA, before the FAs. I always had good crew meals. I had 4 MELs in 2 years. 4. 4! I never ever waited for a gate or a push crew or a jetway operator.

Their culture isn't foolish. It's different, and they wouldn't make the same mistakes you and I would make.

We need checklists because we're weak at routines. They aren't. They're robots. We're cowboys. We grew up thinking the cowboys should win that movie, but it ain't necessarily so.

The airline should just buy some Cessnas and make them go fly touch and goes a few times a year. For stick and rudder. For fun.

 

[Dan Roman]

Sounds like a retarded, backward, foolish culture.

Yep, Westerners are quite superior to that culture. Punitive FOQA? What a bunch of f-wads.

I think that their harda## hero-pilot culture is indicative of a deep sense of inferiority they feel toward Westerners. Insecurity usually leads to this kind of we-don't-make-mistakes attitude.

Acknowledging the fallibility of human beings and the fact that we all make mistakes is the first step toward curing those mistakes.

Idiots.

Actually, grown ups who consistently use the word "retard" are generally perceived as the idiots of our society. It too is an indication of some deep rooted insecurities about oneself.
Thinking one society is a bunch of F wads and another is superior is kind of the same thing as not being able to "acknowledge the fallibility of human beings and the fact that we all make mistakes" to use you words.

 

[waveflyer]

I was always second on the crew bus or crew limo, after the CA, before the FAs. I always had good crew meals. I had 4 MELs in 2 years. 4. 4! I never ever waited for a gate or a push crew or a jetway operator.

Their culture isn't foolish. It's different, and they wouldn't make the same mistakes you and I would make.

We need checklists because we're weak at routines. They aren't. They're robots. We're cowboys. We grew up thinking the cowboys should win that movie, but it ain't necessarily so.

The airline should just buy some Cessnas and make them go fly touch and goes a few times a year. For stick and rudder. For fun.

Good perspective- thank you- I think we're all interested in learning more from those who've been there

 

[livin'thesim]

Actually, grown ups who consistently use the word "retard" are generally perceived as the idiots of our society. It too is an indication of some deep rooted insecurities about oneself.
Thinking one society is a bunch of F wads and another is superior is kind of the same thing as not being able to "acknowledge the fallibility of human beings and the fact that we all make mistakes" to use you words.

I used the word just to give you an reason to get your shorts all cranked up, you adorable little blank-slate equalist.

 

[HA25]

Now for the lighter side

FWO = FLYING WHILE ORIENTAL = NO PHERIPHAL VISION = NO HAND EYE COORDINATION

DWO = DRIVING WHILE ORIENTAL = THE ABOVE ALSO

We have more than a few "Oriental" pilots at Hawaiian that hand fly the crap out the airplanes day in and day out, in the case of inter-island they're doing 8-10 visual approaches a day in 35Kts+ Gusts.... not to mention the 767 ops in and out of Maui... as hard as it gets for visual approaches, short runway, gusts, etc..

it's not about the genetic make up of Asians, it's the culture of those carriers and those countries... Some of the best pilots and (honestly) best CRM at HAL is the guys from Asian backgrounds..

If I were still a moderator here, that post would have been deleted..

 

[SWA Bubba]

Actually, grown ups who consistently use the word "retard" are generally perceived as the idiots of our society. It too is an indication of some deep rooted insecurities about oneself.
Thinking one society is a bunch of F wads and another is superior is kind of the same thing as not being able to "acknowledge the fallibility of human beings and the fact that we all make mistakes" to use you words.

Tell that to the guy who designed our VNAV programming. He has the plane using that very word all the damn time! On the other hand, considering some of the stuff that the VNAV programming does (or at least the version that SWA bought), no to mention the abysmally pathetic lack of effort it puts up before reverting from VNAV Path to VNAV Speed, perhaps that particular programmer does fit into your category defined above as "idiots of our society."

Jes' sayin'...

Bubba

 

[HA25]

Tell that to the guy who designed our VNAV programming. He has the plane using that very word all the damn time! On the other hand, considering some of the stuff that the VNAV programming does (or at least the version that SWA bought), no to mention the abysmally pathetic lack of effort it puts up before reverting from VNAV Path to VNAV Speed, perhaps that particular programmer does fit into your category defined above as "idiots of our society."

Jes' sayin'...

Bubba

you're talking to a guy who's one of our first A330 captains... he's VERY familiar with the word "Retard" in the cockpit, trust me..

 

[dicko]

I was always second on the crew bus or crew limo, after the CA, before the FAs. I always had good crew meals. I had 4 MELs in 2 years. 4. 4! I never ever waited for a gate or a push crew or a jetway operator.

Their culture isn't foolish. It's different, and they wouldn't make the same mistakes you and I would make.

We need checklists because we're weak at routines. They aren't. They're robots. We're cowboys. We grew up thinking the cowboys should win that movie, but it ain't necessarily so.

The airline should just buy some Cessnas and make them go fly touch and goes a few times a year. For stick and rudder. For fun.

Singapore Airlines had a couple of Lears at their Ab initio training college. They started on single recip, then multi, then the Lears and finally heavies. They just sold the last of the Lears. Theyre being replaced by Citation Mustangs.

I think they're trying, but they do not get the sort of progression of flying experience that our system provides/forces.

 

[SWA Bubba]

We have more than a few "Oriental" pilots at Hawaiian that hand fly the crap out the airplanes day in and day out, in the case of inter-island they're doing 8-10 visual approaches a day in 35Kts+ Gusts.... not to mention the 767 ops in and out of Maui... as hard as it gets for visual approaches, short runway, gusts, etc..

it's not about the genetic make up of Asians, it's the culture of those carriers and those countries... Some of the best pilots and (honestly) best CRM at HAL is the guys from Asian backgrounds..

If I were still a moderator here, that post would have been deleted..

Why? It doesn't violate any of the terms of service.

Sure, it's a joke based on a stereotype, but it's not a violation. The terms specifically say that insults are okay, and that users need a thick skin. It's a wide-ranging insult, but not really different than Dan Roman calling me a numbnuts, or me calling him a jackhole (not that either of us in particular would do such a thing, but I understand that other people do ).

As jokes go, it's the same as making a joke about Irish people drinking too much, Italian people all being in the mafia, French people being snobs, etc. For that matter, it's like making jokes about pilots being cheap or egotistical, or about flight attendants being whiny or horny.

As far as I know, the Political Correctness Police doesn't have jurisdiction on this forum. If they did, they certainly would have shut this place down long ago for the last ten years' worth of stereotype-based insults.

Okay, it was a little tasteless, but maybe we should lighten up a little.

Bubba

 

[Dan Roman]

OK here's where I am coming from. My son was born with a relatively minor disability that still required him to be in the special needs classes. He's doing great and on his own path in life. Total contrast to my daughter who is very capable and career minded, he is definitely on a much slower track in life.
So.....for obvious reasons I find the term offensive. Interesting enough, just the other day my son was relating to me a story of being called a "retard" in 3rd grade. His fellow classmates stood up for him and it stopped.

Bubba, while you never have seen me call you or anyone else a name on here, Jackhole is not the same as retard. Jackhole is someone who "chooses" to be an idiot even though they should know better, retard is someone who can't help it.
Interesting our society still puts a stigma on people with disabilities, the reality is many of them accomplish way more with what they have than some people born with no disabilities. The two sports I'm closest to, surfing and motorsports have some great examples. I've known airline pilots that don't have the wisdom, insight and people skills that my son has at 19.

And no I don't get offended while landing the Airbus!

 

[Dan Roman]

or about flight attendants being whiny or horny.

Bubba

Whoa there Hoss....Flight Attendants are horny????

 

[SWA Bubba]

Whoa there Hoss....Flight Attendants are horny????

So I've heard. Personally, all -I- ever get is the whiny ones. Poor me.

Bubba

 

[DCAA320]

Now for the lighter side

FWO = FLYING WHILE ORIENTAL = NO PHERIPHAL VISION = NO HAND EYE COORDINATION

DWO = DRIVING WHILE ORIENTAL = THE ABOVE ALSO

It's a wide-ranging insult, but not really different than Dan Roman calling me a numbnuts, or me calling him a jackhole (not that either of us in particular would do such a thing, but I understand that other people do ).


Bubba

So you equate an idiot insulting multiple races to you and your boyfriend having a jackhole spat. HHMM

When's the last time someone told you to pull your head out of your ass?

 

[SWA Bubba]

So you equate an idiot insulting multiple races to you and your boyfriend having a jackhole spat. HHMM

When's the last time someone told you to pull your head out of your ass?

No, I equated an insult to an insult. Try to keep up. A stereotypical joke insulting a single person, a race of people (Orientals, Irish, etc.), or a profession of people (pilots, FAs, etc.), is equally insulting. However, in any case, it's allowed by the First Amendment in general in this country, and on this forum, by the stated Terms of Service in particular. By the way, your second paragraph demonstrates this quite nicely, you bad-driving, hard-drinking, spaghetti-loving, rude, cheap, whiny, cranial-rectal-inverted jackhole. Did I miss anything? Oh yeah, and your mother wears army boots.

By the way, Dan's not my boyfriend--he's not my type. He flies Airbusses, for God's sake. Ugh.

Bubba

 

[2EASYPilot]

Speaking of stereotypical insults, anyone remember the movie Gran Torrino.

 

[fareview]

If I'm cheating on a written test, I'm looking at the Asian guys paper. If I want to survive an actual emergency, I want a gringo flying that plane. It's not racist to acknowledge that very real cultural differences exist and for whatever reason, many Asian cultures don't mix ideally with Aviation.

I think on some level, we all know this is true.

Hey Professor,

Any other nuggets to contribute to aviation in light of recent events.

fv