FAA changes SFO Landing Policies

[BLUE BAYOU]

If I'm cheating on a written test, I'm looking at the Asian guys paper. If I want to survive an actual emergency, I want a gringo flying that plane. It's not racist to acknowledge that very real cultural differences exist and for whatever reason, many Asian cultures don't mix ideally with Aviation.

I think on some level, we all know this is true.

I guess there weren't any Jap Aces in the Pacific during WWII... Ehhh, Boyington, Ehhh Riceball!!! Your blanket approach to the Asian culture is insulting to all. Aviation accidents can occur to anyone (race, gender, transgender)...

 

[ASADFW7]

The correlation is not racist, it is documented. It may not be presented in a fashion that does not offend everyone but it is factually correct. Overly respectful authority cultures have safety problems.

 

[Zdriver]

wolf king is right this is not a race, culture or nationally thing...its an AB Initiro thing.. air carriers trained in this manner should not be allowed flights to the us.

 

[Diesel-9]

Maybe they could have these guys fly approaches into SFO to 28R while another guy is on 28L. Kind of in a fighting wing position, a poor mans formation landing. At least get them feet dry...

 

[Dan Roman]

wolf king is right this is not a race, culture or nationally thing...its an AB Initiro thing.. air carriers trained in this manner should not be allowed flights to the us.

You mean like Lufthansa?
They are an extremely successful, very safe airline that flies just about everywhere.
Asian American pilots are just as good as anyone else.

So I would submit that it is a culture at these Asian carriers that has a very twisted heiarchical mentality and is still light years behind in basic CRM skills.
If half the horror stories I've heard of authoritarian check pilots at Asian carriers are true than that may provide a clue to what happened at Asiana. A check pilot that was bent on "testing" his candidate more than importing helpful information and creating a learning invironment could create an unsafe situation when the need to work together as a crew is needed. Couple that to a pilot getting 10 hours of pop quizzes from the same guy as they crossed the Pacific and you could have a guy so tired that he could screw up a simple VFR landing.

 

[SIG600]

You mean like Lufthansa?
They are an extremely successful, very safe airline that flies just about everywhere.
Asian American pilots are just as good as anyone else.

Or Air France 447, perfect example of basic airmanship. Just like the Asiana crash. Ab Initio has huge flaws.

No one said "Asian American." They said Asian. And this isn't a race discussion, it's a cultural one. Like ASADFW said, you can't be overly respectful of authority and have a completely open safety culture at the same time.

 

[Dan Roman]

you can't be overly respectful of authority and have a completely open safety culture at the same time.

I believe that was the point of my post, was my writing that unclear?

 

[livin'thesim]

There are always some aspergery retards that love to shriek "racism", while the rest of us roll their eyes.

For it to be "racist", we would have to be implying that there was some inherent defect in Korean people, and even then, it might not be demonstrably racist.

The Koreans have selected a cockpit culture and business culture that does not work as well with aviation safety as modern Western nations do.

American culture of the 1800s would probably be just as bad, for example.

Point is, the Koreans have adopted an attitude toward aviation that is based on their social culture, which is very ego-oriented and does not allow for admitting mistakes in a goal-oriented path to safety.

Instead, it is paramount that the human ego be protected from embarrassment, with aviation safety taking a subordinate role to the preservation of social status.


Americans and Europeans, while imperfect, are more comfortable (ON AVERAGE, RETARDS) with saying "oops, I screwed that up". This acceptance of human fallibility is CRUCIAL to CRM and having a safe flight environment.

But for those whose emotional hemorrhoids are already itching and burning to scream "racism" at the top of their quavering lungs, relax, lollolzlzl!!

The gun-slinging machismo of the American West would have been just as dangerous, and them was some white guys!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

When I was doing OE at a KOREAN airline, I was told that I shouldn't ask questions. This is during OE, mind you!

Their logic was that I should already know the answer and if I asked a Training Captain a question he didn't know the answer to, he would be insulted. And then I will have shamed him, and in turn me and my family. Or something like that.

 

[PSL]

And yet, somehow pride protected is far better than getting to the truth and the prioritization of safety. If that doesn't give everyone who has to live in the reality of those cockpits a moment or pause, IT SHOULD.

In 20 + years of check airman work, I told every person I flew with that they probably knew the books far better than me (and we were far better off for it). My job was to provide an atmosphere where the IOE pilot could learn SAFELY.

Ego is for the golf course (or other field of competition).

The goal is to get from A to B, safely; PERIOD.

If you are more concerned with who is right (honor) rather than what is right, you have no business transporting people in any form.

 

[livin'thesim]

I wonder if they have an Embarrassment Management System instead of a Safety Management System?


Instead of the ASAP, maybe they have an ESAP (Ego-Salving Action Program)?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

They have punitive FOQA including a letter of apology and time off without pay.

This is an example of what can happen at a Korean-based airline:

A friend (American, FO-PNF) on was flying in to an island airfield in the Pacific. Captain (Korean, PF) wasn't paying attention to the progress and started down late. They try to catch up and on final it isn't looking good. At 1000', they aren't stabilized, so they go around. They bring it back around, land, no problems. Good call.

Later that week, my friend gets a call saying he busted FOQA.

Why?

Because on the Go-Around, they dipped below 1000'. . . :smash:

I guess they need a DDA(H) for Stabilized Approach Criteria.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

One more story about Korean aviation decision making:

My friend told me about this:

He is FO-PNF flying in to Pusan-Gimhae. They're #2 for the ILS and the weather is at minimums. The #1 airline doesn't get the field in sight, and goes around. My friend's flight doesn't get the runway and goes around, too.

Both flights hold for a while until the weather comes up a bit. Both flights start getting vectors for the approach. #1 airline goes missed again. My friend's flight gets the runway insight, but the CA-PF goes around. . .

Why?

The CA explained that if the #1 airline went missed, it would be suspicious if they did land. . .

 

[livin'thesim]

Sounds like a retarded, backward, foolish culture.

Yep, Westerners are quite superior to that culture. Punitive FOQA? What a bunch of f-wads.

I think that their harda## hero-pilot culture is indicative of a deep sense of inferiority they feel toward Westerners. Insecurity usually leads to this kind of we-don't-make-mistakes attitude.

Acknowledging the fallibility of human beings and the fact that we all make mistakes is the first step toward curing those mistakes.

Idiots.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Sounds like a retarded, backward, foolish culture.

Yep, Westerners are quite superior to that culture. Punitive FOQA? What a bunch of f-wads.

I was always second on the crew bus or crew limo, after the CA, before the FAs. I always had good crew meals. I had 4 MELs in 2 years. 4. 4! I never ever waited for a gate or a push crew or a jetway operator.

Their culture isn't foolish. It's different, and they wouldn't make the same mistakes you and I would make.

We need checklists because we're weak at routines. They aren't. They're robots. We're cowboys. We grew up thinking the cowboys should win that movie, but it ain't necessarily so.

The airline should just buy some Cessnas and make them go fly touch and goes a few times a year. For stick and rudder. For fun.