F-35C passed the Critical Design Review

[dtfl]

Spoken from someone who has never been deployed to OEF/OIF. Ask any JTAC, who has been to OEF, what he thinks are the three best CAS platforms and I'll bet you my ascot that a USN/USMC airplane won't make it into the list.

AC130
A10
and....A.......errr.........umm.......
F16?

 

[McGillicutty]

AC130
A10
and....A.......errr.........umm.......
F16?

F15E. Many of us felt they did great work, some would say better than the hogs.

 

[Deuce130]

Part of the problem with this whole argument is that Dave has got a grossly oversimplified perspective on CAS. The AF hates CAS? AF pilots don't want to support the grunts? AF Generals hate soldiers? Dumb, dumb, dumb. Ask any AF puke who's done CAS before and as soon as they hear TIC they go into superhero mode. Yes, it's true that some airplanes are better suited to certain things than others, but I guarantee you that each individual in that cockpit or flight deck is working their a** off to save as many US lives and end as many others as they can. To insinuate anything else isn't true for one, and secondly it sidetracks a legitimate discussion. To break it down to ascot wearing, prima donna AF pilots don't want to do CAS (except for A-10 pilots, who for some reason pass the Dave test) simply demonstrates Dave's ignorance and his true agenda. For whatever reason, he just doesn't like us and he's latched on to CAS as a reason for it. Whatever.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Part of the problem with this whole argument is that Dave has got a grossly oversimplified perspective on CAS. The AF hates CAS? AF pilots don't want to support the grunts? AF Generals hate soldiers? Dumb, dumb, dumb. Ask any AF puke who's done CAS before and as soon as they hear TIC they go into superhero mode. Yes, it's true that some airplanes are better suited to certain things than others, but I guarantee you that each individual in that cockpit or flight deck is working their a** off to save as many US lives and end as many others as they can. To insinuate anything else isn't true for one, and secondly it sidetracks a legitimate discussion. To break it down to ascot wearing, prima donna AF pilots don't want to do CAS (except for A-10 pilots, who for some reason pass the Dave test) simply demonstrates Dave's ignorance and his true agenda. For whatever reason, he just doesn't like us and he's latched on to CAS as a reason for it. Whatever.

Deuce 130,

My argument is with the senior leadership of the AF. They perpetuate a culture where supporting grunts plays second fiddle to the true higher calling – an air centric model for all engagements where, due to their self described superior intellect, training and war fighting capabilities, the AF runs the whole show. This is what makes the AF an underperforming team player in the current war. Gen. Key’s remarks regarding the AF’s disdain for how his F-16s and UAVs are used in current IED detection strategy provides clear evidence of this.

While Hogs and Gunships do the best job of anyone supporting the guys on the ground, the senior fighter guys that establish doctrine for fighter CAS don’t do as well. They would much rather be planning to engage the MIG 1.44 or a quadruple digit SAM site. The senior fighter guys’ hearts just aren’t in supporting grunts.

I am hopeful that the F-35 does it better but I am also thankful that the A-10C PE program will re-wing the Hogs, give them similar super powers as F-16s and keep them flying until 2028. A-10 guys won’t mind looking for IEDs.

Maj. Gen. Hagenbeck, USA, issued a stinging critique of AF fighter CAS during Operation Anaconda. http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/2002/SEP_OCT_2002/SEP_OCT_2002_PAGES_5_9.pdf
In the interview he praises A-10s & AC-130s for being particularly effective, Navy and Marine F-18s for flying below minimums (“terrific” he called the F-18s) and then he calls out the AF fighters as mired in poorly planned and executed airspace management that resulted in slow response times of 26 minutes or more from the AF F-16s.

The opinion that AF CAS provided by F-16s is not as good as it should be is not uncommon.

Since you question my biases and motives, to what agenda do you attribute Gen. Hagenbeck’s opinions?

 

[SIG600]

Dave Griffin is an ass, that as far as I know has been proven to not even be wearing a trident. I'd be willing to bet he's got more posts on this board than rounds shot down range.

 

[Deuce130]

Deuce 130,

My argument is with the senior leadership of the AF. They perpetuate a culture where supporting grunts plays second fiddle to the true higher calling – an air centric model for all engagements where, due to their self described superior intellect, training and war fighting capabilities, the AF runs the whole show. This is what makes the AF an underperforming team player in the current war. Gen. Key’s remarks regarding the AF’s disdain for how his F-16s and UAVs are used in current IED detection strategy provides clear evidence of this.

While Hogs and Gunships do the best job of anyone supporting the guys on the ground, the senior fighter guys that establish doctrine for fighter CAS don’t do as well. They would much rather be planning to engage the MIG 1.44 or a quadruple digit SAM site. The senior fighter guys’ hearts just aren’t in supporting grunts.

I am hopeful that the F-35 does it better but I am also thankful that the A-10C PE program will re-wing the Hogs, give them similar super powers as F-16s and keep them flying until 2028. A-10 guys won’t mind looking for IEDs.

Maj. Gen. Hagenbeck, USA, issued a stinging critique of AF fighter CAS during Operation Anaconda. http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/2002/SEP_OCT_2002/SEP_OCT_2002_PAGES_5_9.pdf
In the interview he praises A-10s & AC-130s for being particularly effective, Navy and Marine F-18s for flying below minimums (“terrific” he called the F-18s) and then he calls out the AF fighters as mired in poorly planned and executed airspace management that resulted in slow response times of 26 minutes or more from the AF F-16s.

The opinion that AF CAS provided by F-16s is not as good as it should be is not uncommon.

Since you question my biases and motives, to what agenda do you attribute Gen. Hagenbeck’s opinions?

After reading the article, I would surmise the only agenda Gen Hagenbeck has is to improve the way things are done next time. I have zero problem with his statements or his opinions. A valid debrief is one that leads to lessons learned for the next fight. The one thing missing from Gen Hagenbeck's criticisms is the blatant insults, lies, and half-truths that you spew out. You really want a Viper driver to listen to what you have to say? Stop insulting them. Stop lying and accusing. Stop throwing bombs. You'll notice that the General didn't personally attack anyone during the entire interview. Maybe you could learn something from it. Lastly, and I've asked this before, are you really a SEAL? Seen any time in the AOR? Ever been on a DA? Ever worked with an AF ST guy? Ever called in CAS yourself? You've definitely got strong opinons, and I would go even so far as to say you're informed to a certain extent. What's your background that makes you so inflammatory towards AF fighter pilots and Generals? What is it?

 

[bagasticks]

she stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. . . I seen her, sundress and all. . .

 

[Scrapdog]

After reading the article, I would surmise the only agenda Gen Hagenbeck has is to improve the way things are done next time. I have zero problem with his statements or his opinions. A valid debrief is one that leads to lessons learned for the next fight. The one thing missing from Gen Hagenbeck's criticisms is the blatant insults, lies, and half-truths that you spew out. You really want a Viper driver to listen to what you have to say? Stop insulting them. Stop lying and accusing. Stop throwing bombs. You'll notice that the General didn't personally attack anyone during the entire interview. Maybe you could learn something from it. Lastly, and I've asked this before, are you really a SEAL? Seen any time in the AOR? Ever been on a DA? Ever worked with an AF ST guy? Ever called in CAS yourself? You've definitely got strong opinons, and I would go even so far as to say you're informed to a certain extent. What's your background that makes you so inflammatory towards AF fighter pilots and Generals? What is it?

Deuce - outstanding post. Very good points. Dave, what the hell do you actually do in the military? We're all very interested...

 

[Hobit]

Yesterday, 20:14 Remove user from ignore list
DaveGriffin This message is hidden because DaveGriffin is on your ignore list.

 

[Gorilla]

This whole thing cracks me up. Dave's presence here in this conversation is as insulting as one of us finding some sort of SEAL / SpecOps board, logging on, and trying to inform them of their failings, telling them how it should "really be done" and pulling statements out of our a$$ in some bizarre attempt to demonstrate our infinte knowledge of their world.

Conclusion: Dave is simply a Troll
Definition of Troll: Anyone who posts crap designed to purely inflame and aggravate; gets chuckles from the reactions of the other members.

 

[pony251]

MAGNUM!!

I expect that the F-35 as a replacement for the A-10 will be kick-*ss.

-Yeah right. How about a gun? The COCOM is specifically asking for A-10s right now because the F-16 20mm peashooter can't get the job done. SOF guys don't like hunting down squirters who run from a car just shot by a 20mm. Nothing personal but the F-16 was never designed for this mission. Neither was the F-35.

Spoken from someone who has never been deployed to OEF/OIF. Ask any JTAC, who has been to OEF, what he thinks are the three best CAS platforms and I'll bet you my ascot that a USN/USMC airplane won't make it into the list.

-McGillicutty, Lucky for you, you won't have to wear the ascot of shame anymore. Marine F-18's are on the list. And yes, I have been a ground FAC (not in theater) and flown in theater.

 

[dtfl]

-Yeah right. How about a gun? The COCOM is specifically asking for A-10s right now because the F-16 20mm peashooter can't get the job done. SOF guys don't like hunting down squirters who run from a car just shot by a 20mm. Nothing personal but the F-16 was never designed for this mission. Neither was the F-35.


-McGillicutty, Lucky for you, you won't have to wear the ascot of shame anymore. Marine F-18's are on the list. And yes, I have been a ground FAC (not in theater) and flown in theater.

Curious - why would his ascot be one of shame? Flying an AC130 is far from shameful.

 

[pony251]

Curious - why would his ascot be one of shame? Flying an AC130 is far from shameful.

[/quote]
Flying isn't shameful. Wearing an ascot is.

 

[McGillicutty]

Flying isn't shameful. Wearing an ascot is.[/quote]

It was a joke; DaveGriffin loves to make fun of us for wearing ascots.... even though no one wears them.

My post comes after talking with several JTACs ranging from Brit SBS to USAF CCT in country.

 

[bagasticks]

Flying isn't shameful. Wearing an ascot is.

It was a joke; DaveGriffin loves to make fun of us for wearing ascots.... even though no one wears them.

My post comes after talking with several JTACs ranging from Brit SBS to USAF CCT in country.[/quote]



-I would agree, although my take is limited (herbivore tanker clown) I spent most days chasing 15E's and Hornets from killbox to killbox, maybe hawgs dont have the fuel burn, i dont know, but them mudhens seem to do ALOT of CAS.