ExpressJet New TA Payrates

[BluDevAv8r]

I presume this is the correct, same TA that was originally supposed to be released tomorrow?

If so, I must say I am a disappointed in the FO pay rates, after all isn't that what many in the peanut gallery blasted CHQ about, "throwing the FOs under the bus for growth" or something to that effect? I'd think a first year FO is worth at least $25/hr and a 5th year FO at least $45/hr, but then again I'm partial (I'm not hired yet). The captain rates, while not Comair + like so many here boasted they would be, don't seem too awful bad, but don't seem to be that much higher than CHQ. Also, as was previously mentioned, no "leaked" rates for 70 or 90 seat aircraft (I dont know if this is a good or bad thing).

There will be MANY pilots on this board dishing the few hardline XJT pilots on this board that blasted CHQ and Mesaba for their contracts if this is approved as it stands. Without the current XJT contract and the whole actual TA in front of me, I won't say what I would vote because that isn't important.

Regardless of the outcome of this TA, I once again would like to thank Neal (especially for his postings on this board) and the whole NC for their hard work; it sure seems to be a thankless responsibility.

Thank you for the kind words. Earlier this evening, a 27-page highlight and summary document was emailed to all pilots as well as the full (200+ pages) TA, and 53 pages of pay examples for the leg by leg pay system. There is far more to this agreement than just pay rates. Obviously, I will encourage our pilots to attend a road show as that is the proper forum to hear what we have to say and subsequently have questions answered as well as a chance to voice concerns.

I will say this - this TA provides $31 million of improvements (on a base payroll of roughly $90 million) in the first year alone on top of the $30 million retroactive pay package, which is based on Comair pay rates (making our pilots the highest paid pilots flying 50 seat aircraft for the past 2 years) and also includes 401k contributions on that retro money, subject to IRS limits. In 2008, there are $55 million of improvements over the current payroll number.

-Neal

 

[Vortilon]

Be careful when bragging about being well paid....you might end up as an evil scapegoat for mismanagement!

 

[KingAirer]

Well ya we blasted CHQ and MESA, and its because of your contracts that we have what we have.


ps I love the scope section. Reads real nice for mergers of ALPA carriers. Hey CHQ you guys are teamsters right?

Well I guess you could say we got our contract because of your Low current contract, so its just a cycle.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

I'll admit that a year ago I was one of the more vocal MESA/CHQ bashers on here. The pay rates in this TA are simply embarassing. If it passes I'll be easy to spot in the airport. I'll be the guy walking around with a paper bag over my head.

 

[Southbound]

News Flash. The days of enduring wages like these in hopes of getting a 'real' job flying jets around North America are over. You will have to endure these wages for much of your career with the way things are headed. You folks DO fly REAL JETS....to places coast to coast...to Canada... to Latin America, start expecting to be paid like the professionals you are. Farming out mainline jobs to regionals will continue as long as guys sign up to be paid less than the the 5 year airport bus driver. Guess the rest of the 'regional' airline pilots will have to take a pay CUT to be 'regional' industry standard in the coming years of negotiations. Flying is not just meant to be fun at this level....it needs to support a certain standard of living above that of a starving college kid.

 

[Obi-Wan]

I hope this is not correct. $32.00 hr second year FO is %54 of capt pay. I thaught they offered us 57.5 a few months ago. Talk about the FO's getting shafted. After furlough, flushbacks etc... Thanks alot XJT mgt. You can keep your F*cking profit sharing. Guys at skywest make more. The leg by leg pay dont do Fo's any good when half the Capt fly pedal to the metal. Ofcourse they got theirs so Screw the FO's. Also what good does the extra vacation do for me when I cant afford to take one. I rather take the 1 week I earned and get $38 hr so I can afford it. Go to the road show and see what hey have to say. Obviously they have worked hard on this and they are to be Commended for their work. As an FO I gotta say Fvck no to the a contract that sells out the Fo's. What about all the guys who are comming in now. What if there was another furlough and upgrade took so long.
Vote NO

 

[DesertFalcon]

Too many pilots - Not enough jobs = Weak demand and lower pay.

The trend is weak, for pay increases in aviation, at this time. I can't see how anyone will get a strong contract now; Especially, if flying a Pt 121 operation.

 

[TWAER]

Well ya we blasted CHQ and MESA, and its because of your contracts that we have what we have.


ps I love the scope section. Reads real nice for mergers of ALPA carriers. Hey CHQ you guys are teamsters right?

It took longer than I thought. Always someone elses fault. If you accept it, it will be YOURS. Wake up and realize you will not get paid $100 hr to fly an RJ. Comair payrates are not even attainable by COmair today. And you really think scope means anything in a contract. HA HA HA HA HA HA

 

[brew3departure]

Where's that british pilot XJET guy...

What was his name? BOACPilot? Britpilot? Something like that? One of the more caustic, vocal CHQ/Mesaba/etc. bashers on here a while back?

I'd be really curious to know what he has to say. And, for that matter, all the rest of you folks who were so eager and so quick to bash the airlines mentioned above. It's not really fair to get all up in arms before the TA is voted on, and it's also amazing how many people will publicly decry "This is a crappy contract" and then vote yes.

My issue, though, is not with any of this. It is with the people that were so sure, so absolutely sure that with CHQ and Mesaba signing their agreements that it spelled DOOM for you guys at XJT. Britpilot said something to the effect of "You pansies can't negotiate a contract? Never mind, we'll do it for you." I'm waiting, Mr. Britpilot. I'm waiting for the Comair + 10%, I'm waiting for the "if we don't get one hundred dollars an hour we'll strike", I'm waiting for the pilots of XJT to single-handedly SAVE the industry, RAISE the bar, and truly place themselves above every other pilot group, in paycheck, stature, and ego.

It also really amazes me how similar a lot of the responses are, justifying the compensation and/or work rules. "It's quality of life, not compensation" or, my personal favorite "There are monetary increases outside/in addition to the straight pay rates that are worth more." CHQ and Mesaba guys, sound familiar at all? None of us lowly non-xjt pilots have seen the actual TA yet, but I would be willing to wager that those two statements are probably true, as they were with CHQ, and with Mesaba.

If you look back on my previous posts on this issue, you will always see that the one commonality was my hope for XJT to attain an industry leading contract. For all the smack you guys talk(ed), for all the attitude and everything else, a lot of us, including myself, thought that perhaps with CAL in a difficult and unique position of providing so much feed and your rights to that feed until sometime in the future, that maybe you would break the mold and, in a period of low yields and high prices for everything else, score a major gain in contract. One of the predominant reasons we thought this was the shameless and tiresome bashing of other airlines and chest thumping on public forums like these.

To say that I could care less about whether it passes or not isn't quite true. I have several friends at XJT and would like to see them do well. I also don't wish any malice or ill will towards any pilot group - those who do, in my opinion, need to look in the mirror. And to blame this TA on your bretheren at CHQ and Mesaba, well, that's really something, isn't it? Let's say Skyway, after many years of being promised these jungle jets, finally gets them during contract negotiations. Do they get to blame each and every XJT pilot, like you guys did, for rates that are considered sub-par? Or, on the flip side of that, the next time that CHQ, Eagle or whomever negotiaties their next contract. Can they look at you guys and mutter "It's because of those *-holes that we've got these rates." Where does it stop? You are worth what you negotiate. A lot of us expected more, and if, by chance, the TA is voted down, *and you manage to get something better in the second go-around*, again, reference my posts about hoping for the best for you guys.

In closing, though, whether you vote yes or no is not my place to say. As I have said on this forum so many times, people's individual reasons for voting yes or no go so much further than straight pay rates, and they *CERTAINLY* go a lot farther than whether or not the public bashing on flightinfo will commence based on the vote. Give me a break. No ill will towards you guys either way - whether the contract is voted in or not. Is it an improvement on your current contract? Yes. Were the CHQ and Mesaba contracts improvements on their respective contracts? Yes they were. Again, sound familiar?

I'm off to submit my application for speechwriter.

Flame on...
-brew3

 

[gunfyter]

Would someone translate these rates for Capt into what annual pay would be? I multiply by 75 hours X 12 months and what I get seems low... Am I figuring correctly? If I simply multiply by 1000 would that be fairly accurate?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Yes you are and yes they are.

 

[145FO]

Would someone translate these rates for Capt into what annual pay would be? I multiply by 75 hours X 12 months and what I get seems low... Am I figuring correctly? If I simply multiply by 1000 would that be fairly accurate?

Just multiply the hourly rate by 900 and that is the base pay for 1 year. Ex. 5th year captain $64.47 x 900 = $58,023 per year for base pay. Profit sharing has been around 8% and block or better supposedly would add another 2-4%. So if the stars are aligned properly a 5th year captain would only make $63,825-64,986.

edit: Profit sharing can be terminated at any time and then our pay rates go up by 3% in return.

 

[surplus1]

Profit sharing is much like counting your chickens before they hatch. It's like a bonus. You get it if somebody else (that you don't control) does a good job. If they screw up, you get nothing no matter what you do.

Synonym = smoke and mirrors.

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush."

 

[captjim]

Just a few bullet points of TA1:



You all have seen the pay rates.



Retirement:

401K


Years of service Company match

5 yrs or less 100% up to 4%

5 to 10yrs 100% 5%

10 +yrs 100% 6%



B fund:

5yrs or less 2.5% of annual income

5 to 10 yrs 4%

10 to 15yrs 5%

15 to 20yrs 5.5%

20 + yrs 6%



Other Points:



100% pay for deadheads, actual or block

$150 uniform allowance

CREW MEALS

leg by leg(good for between 2 to 4% pay)

Pay for home study

Red Flag trips paid at 150% pay

Customs pay

JR manned with less than 12 days off 150% pay and have day restored

Profit sharing (has been averaging 8% annual income) If profit sharing is terminated, pay increases 3%)

New hires get insurance in 3 months now

Long/Short call reserve

Reserve pilots will not have vacation days prorated

Voluntary training on day off is paid at 150%

 

[sweptback]

Just a few bullet points of TA1:

CREW MEALS

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this at your expense? How is it any more of a crew meal than, say, going to the McD's in the terminal between legs?

Don't get me wrong, though, crew meals would be something I'd like to have, especially since my longest break of the day is maybe 1:03 and it involves an aircraft swap (very common at ASA, unfortunately...)

Red Flag trips paid at 150% pay

Maybe this is just a coex thing, but what incentive does crew scheduling have to "red flag" a trip? If it was that urgent to get somebody to pick it up, wouldn't they just assign it to a reserve?

New hires get insurance in 3 months now

Yikes, I got insurance 30 days after my hire date at ASA. I'd hate to have to wait 3 months. What was it before?

Long/Short call reserve

Have details of this been posted? I'm curious since scheduling (especially reserve scheduling) seems to be the #1 issue in negotiations at ASA. Do you guys have ready reserve?

My uninformed impression is that this is a step up for you guys, but still below the bar set by Comair. The fact that you got a TA though should really help move things along at ASA, at least in theory. Especially since you guys started negotiating before us and have a TA faster...

 

[Whirlwind]

Interesting...

I could live comfortably on 5 year captain pay, but I'd be starving at the 1st year FO level... If the 2nd year FO pay was the starting pay, I think it would be a fair contract considering economic conditions.

My 2 cents...

 

[Buford T Justic]

Hey Jimbo You coming to town on Sat. for the road show ????

Just a few bullet points of TA1:



You all have seen the pay rates.



Retirement:

401K


Years of service Company match

5 yrs or less 100% up to 4%

5 to 10yrs 100% 5%

10 +yrs 100% 6%



B fund:

5yrs or less 2.5% of annual income

5 to 10 yrs 4%

10 to 15yrs 5%

15 to 20yrs 5.5%

20 + yrs 6%



Other Points:



100% pay for deadheads, actual or block

$150 uniform allowance

CREW MEALS

leg by leg(good for between 2 to 4% pay)

Pay for home study

Red Flag trips paid at 150% pay

Customs pay

JR manned with less than 12 days off 150% pay and have day restored

Profit sharing (has been averaging 8% annual income) If profit sharing is terminated, pay increases 3%)

New hires get insurance in 3 months now

Long/Short call reserve

Reserve pilots will not have vacation days prorated

Voluntary training on day off is paid at 150%

 

[DDpaysoff]

Your 4th year FO rates should be 2cd year rates, with increases in line. Capt. pay after 4 years 6$ an hour higher. I think they are trying to insult you guys with the 'profit sharing' cookie and this offer. Another managment's wet dream (See mesa, CHQ, Pinnacle). I wonder what kind of bonus they get if you sign this POS.

 

[av8tor4239]

COEX PILOTS:


Please remember you are NOT regional airline pilots anymore. Just because you have express after your name does not mean you have to have a crap contract. Example: Federal EXPRESS.

You guys are no longer OWNED by Continetal main line. You are your own Coast to Coast International airline. Remember too you are Double the size of ASA (who I work for), and our Fo's are making more money now (contract 98) than your new TA says for FO's.
It would be a shame if this is voted in with a 51%/49% vote. I feel strongly that you deserve and can achieve a better contract. Please talk to your fellow crew members with open ears and get different opinions dont be narrow minded, but KNOW THIS YOU CAN AND WILL GET A BETTER TA IF YOU HOLD OUT!

Former Coex pilot
E4484

 

[captjim]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this at your expense? How is it any more of a crew meal than, say, going to the McD's in the terminal between legs?

Don't get me wrong, though, crew meals would be something I'd like to have, especially since my longest break of the day is maybe 1:03 and it involves an aircraft swap (very common at ASA, unfortunately...)


Maybe this is just a coex thing, but what incentive does crew scheduling have to "red flag" a trip? If it was that urgent to get somebody to pick it up, wouldn't they just assign it to a reserve?


Yikes, I got insurance 30 days after my hire date at ASA. I'd hate to have to wait 3 months. What was it before?


Have details of this been posted? I'm curious since scheduling (especially reserve scheduling) seems to be the #1 issue in negotiations at ASA. Do you guys have ready reserve?

My uninformed impression is that this is a step up for you guys, but still below the bar set by Comair. The fact that you got a TA though should really help move things along at ASA, at least in theory. Especially since you guys started negotiating before us and have a TA faster...

Forgive me, haven't figured out how to use the quoting on this format.


Crew Meals - As far as the crew meals we will get them on on flights that have meals for pax's. I wish I knew the block times that meals are served, I think 1:20 block time during meal time. This is the same as CAL or mainline. There is also a provision that says we can delay a flight to get something to eat if there has been a series of flights that are short and there is no sit time in the pairing. As a side note, myself and others have been delaying flights to get food for years, it's just in the contract now.

Red Flag - Neal can answer this one better. I America West has this. It's a provision that would come into affect when reserve coverage drops below a certain point. It however doen't allow the company to understaff on reserves.

Insurence - 3 months without insurence is a long time, however 6 months is even longer.

Pay Rates - They speak for themselves