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hou757

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Posts
225
DOT 127-09
Friday, August 21, 2009
Contact: Bill Mosley
Tel.: (202) 366-4570



STATEMENT BY U.S. TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY RAY LAHOOD ON CONCLUSION OF THE PRELIMINARY PHASE OF THE CONTINENTAL TARMAC DELAY INVESTIGATION

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced today that his department has concluded the preliminary phase of its investigation into the Aug. 8 tarmac delay by Continental Airlines on a flight operated by ExpressJet Airlines. Passengers were stranded in a plane on the ground in Rochester, MN from 12:28 a.m. to about 6:00 a.m. with only pretzels provided by the carrier to eat.

“We have determined that the Express Jet crew was not at fault. In fact, the flight crew repeatedly tried to get permission to deplane the passengers at the airport or obtain a bus for them,” Secretary LaHood said.

“The local representative of Mesaba Airlines improperly refused the requests of the captain to let her passengers off the plane. The representative incorrectly said that the airport was closed to passengers for security reasons, which led to this nightmare for those stuck on the plane,” he said.

Mesaba is a wholly owned subsidiary of Northwest Airlines, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines.

The representative of Mesaba – the only carrier able to assist Continental at the airport – said that the airport was closed to passengers, apparently because there was no one from the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) available to screen passengers. In fact, TSA procedures allow passengers to get off the plane, enter the terminal and re-board without being screened again as long as they remain in a sterile area.

“There was a complete lack of common sense here,” Secretary LaHood said. “It’s no wonder the flying public is so angry and frustrated.”

Members of the Department’s Aviation Enforcement Office interviewed passengers, the flight crew, airport personnel and others with knowledge of the situation. They also listened to audio recordings from the aircraft and the dispatcher. In addition, Continental’s customer service commitment, contingency plan for flight delays and contract of carriage were reviewed.

“This is one of the most thorough investigations ever conducted by the Department’s Aviation Enforcement Office,” LaHood said.

The Aviation Enforcement Office is considering the appropriate action to take against Mesaba as it completes the investigation, which it expects to conclude within a few weeks. The Department has proposed regulations requiring airlines to adopt contingency plans for lengthy tarmac delays and to incorporate these plans in their contract of carriage, and asked for comment on whether it should set a uniform standard of time after which carriers would be required to allow passengers to deplane. The findings from this investigation will be used to help formulate a final rule that will provide better protection for airline passengers.

Finally, the preliminary investigation showed that while the crew of the ExpressJet flight did all it could to assist the passengers, more senior personnel within Continental or ExpressJet should have become involved in an effort to obtain permission to take the passengers off the plane.

http://www.expressjetpilots.com/the-pipe/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=339938
 
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more senior personnel within Continental or ExpressJet should have become involved in an effort to obtain permission to take the passengers off the plane

What, get management to work after 4pm? Like that is ever going to happen.
 
I owe the Captain an apology.

Once again, the lowest bidder disease rears its ugly head!
 
“The local representative of Mesaba Airlines improperly refused the requests of the captain to let her passengers off the plane. The representative incorrectly said that the airport was closed to passengers for security reasons, which led to this nightmare for those stuck on the plane,” he said.

Ohhh yes.... :D
 
National media exposure first... next is bent sheet metal and finally loss of life.

You dumb bastards.
 
In fact, TSA procedures allow passengers to get off the plane, enter the terminal and re-board without being screened again as long as they remain in a sterile area.

Good to know! Next time I divert to TOM ...

Anybody has the excerpt from the TSA manual?
 
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National media exposure first... next is bent sheet metal and finally loss of life.

You dumb bastards.

Dude... people make mistakes all the time. Unless of course you are the first person who hasn't... Maybe if you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones???
 
Dude.... bro... homey...

Mistake? Right, it was a mistake that the ground personnel didn't want to 'deal' with the passengers so they left them on the airplane for the crew to deal with.
 
Dude.... bro... homey...

Mistake? Right, it was a mistake that the ground personnel didn't want to 'deal' with the passengers so they left them on the airplane for the crew to deal with.

"Minneapolis Center this is Xjet, 1234, we are declaring an emergency on the ground in Rochester due to the fact that we are unable to safetly accomodate the passengers in our aircraft."

Next, the flight crew says the same thing on Rochester CTAF (118.3), and Unicom (122.95) and finally the operations frequency. Adding that if no help is seen in the next 5 minutes, their net phone call will be to 911.

By this time ATC should have 4 ARFF trucks swarming around that airplane, and Rochester PD would already have been notified and been responding.

As the Captain of a 121 airliner (or entire flight crew) can't think out of the box to get something done, then they probably shouldn't be there...

To quote a Captain that I have flown with, "I don't care if you are male or female, if you want 4 stripes... you better get a pair of balls to go with them..."
 
Declare an emergency......Pull up to a gate...ANY gate.........open the door....let the Pax run free.They WILL deal with them at that point. Of course, tell ops what you are doing...Don't ASK them for permission..TELL them what you are doing. I know hind sight is always 20/20 but I have discussed this situation with other people after the JetBlue incident.
 
piav8r- I deliberately neglected to address the crew's responsibility in the matter as I am only commenting towards the incompetency of the Mesaba ground crew and how their actions reflect about 90% of the Mesaba stations I deal with.
 
I don't buy the blame game towards Mesaba. There was an NWA flight on the ground at the same time. They had no problems getting their people off the plane and into a bus. A bus, with seats made available to the XJet flight, I might add.

Ok, believe the first news article printed versus the multi-week investigation that accessed all information, including recorded conversations between the pilots and ground services. I am sure the investigators are trying to cover up ExpressJet errors and are throwing Mesaba under the proverbial bus. That makes so much more sense!

NW may have offered bus seats, but if that message was never relayed to the captain, as evidenced by recorded conversations, then the fault lays with the person charged with properly relaying the message.

No doubt the captain should have just made things happen, but if she was in contact with operations, and ops continually communicated that it was not possible to offload the pax, then it is reasonable to expect the operations staff to shoulder the majority of the blame. The captain was working off of information provided. Garbage in, garbage out.
 
"Minneapolis Center this is Xjet, 1234, we are declaring an emergency on the ground in Rochester due to the fact that we are unable to safetly accomodate the passengers in our aircraft."

"Xjet 1234, will you require medical personnel?"

"Center, negative. If anything, maybe just some food and a lav dump... but it's an emergency"

( :laugh: )
 
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Wow... just more proof the media consistently gets it wrong, there is always more to the story and that we shouldn't prejudge anyone. Having said that, while the Mesaba ground staff might be negligent here, I'm sure there is plenty of blame to be shared by all parties involved, including Delta. I'm sure there is even more to the story, as to how the Mesaba rep came to this conclusion. Perhaps, the ground staff were al busy with the NWA/DL flights and didn't have time? Who knows... there's 2 sides to the Mesaba angle here. Sounds like Mesaba tried to work with them, but I guess we know the end game and how it turned out. Maybe I was a little quick to initially post. I had no idea the Startrib has links to the tapes etc...

MaxQ - what airline do you fly for when you encounter XJ stations? If it's Pinnacle... wow, pot calling the kettle black?
 
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"Minneapolis Center this is Xjet, 1234, we are declaring an emergency on the ground in Rochester due to the fact that we are unable to safetly accomodate the passengers in our aircraft."

Next, the flight crew says the same thing on Rochester CTAF (118.3), and Unicom (122.95) and finally the operations frequency. Adding that if no help is seen in the next 5 minutes, their net phone call will be to 911.

Declaring an emergency would be a terrible idea. You're already on the ground, what more could ATC do for you?

What the Captain should have done is use her Captain's authority to find a solution to the problem. This is evidently beyond the grasp of some on here, but Captain's authority and declaring an emergency are two totally separate things.
 
piav8r- I deliberately neglected to address the crew's responsibility in the matter as I am only commenting towards the incompetency of the Mesaba ground crew and how their actions reflect about 90% of the Mesaba stations I deal with.

Fine then Max Q, I deliberately took offense to your whole post because you felt the need to correlate the ALLEGED actions of one XJ GROUD employee across the entire company, including I might add:

"National media exposure first... next is bent sheet metal and finally loss of life. You dumb bastards."

Had you not posted on a public forum that the ALLEGED actions of ONE groundsperson would lead to bent sheet metal and loss of life is ignorant at best. Since you didn't explain further I can only assume you meant to lump grounds personel, and a professional flight crew in the same category.

And if you have had a problem with XJ stations in the past, go through channels at your company to bring them to the attention of XJ management and things will change. If you aren't willing to do that... you have no right to complain.

There are WAY to many inconsistencies in this story, mysterious other flights that were able to get bussed at the same time, etc...
 
Fine then Max Q, I deliberately took offense to your whole post because you felt the need to correlate the ALLEGED actions of one XJ GROUD employee across the entire company, including I might add:

"National media exposure first... next is bent sheet metal and finally loss of life. You dumb bastards."

Had you not posted on a public forum that the ALLEGED actions of ONE groundsperson would lead to bent sheet metal and loss of life is ignorant at best. Since you didn't explain further I can only assume you meant to lump grounds personel, and a professional flight crew in the same category.

And if you have had a problem with XJ stations in the past, go through channels at your company to bring them to the attention of XJ management and things will change. If you aren't willing to do that... you have no right to complain.

There are WAY to many inconsistencies in this story, mysterious other flights that were able to get bussed at the same time, etc...

piav8r- I am speaking directly to those ground stations occupied by underpaid and under-trained ground handlers, whom in many cases, have no desire to provide timely assistance to any piece of equipment not painted in red. None of my posts require further explanation by customers and crew who deal with these stations on a regular basis.

I can understand your reluctance to accept the above statement by the DOT as fact but I can assure you, these allegations come as no surprise to many of us in the business.

You get what you pay for.
 
I agree, they are underpaid... But you still didn't answer my question... why do you equate ground service with XJ bending sheet metal and killing people?

How many fatal accidents has Mesaba had again?

Retract the "dumb bastards, bent sheet metal, and killing people" part of your statement, then I will have no issue with whatever opinion you have on what happened in RST...
 
I retract nothing. If they're not going to bring back the veterans, adequately train the greenhorns and pay them more.
 
Man MaxQ, you're seriously disgruntled from the VPS changeover huh? Too bad it's a two-way street and the service from former red tail stations, that are now combined with DL SUCK!! D-0 is like a totally new concept at DL. You're going to let your limited experience with an XJ station color our entire company? Thanks for all the prejudgment.
 
Flap Operator: I want you to go back in this thread and quote the exact phrase of mine that leads you to believe I am criticizing the entire company.

I can assure you, there are very few things in life I am disgruntled about. This is not one of them. ;)
 
Man MaxQ, you're seriously disgruntled from the VPS changeover huh? Too bad it's a two-way street and the service from former red tail stations, that are now combined with DL SUCK!! D-0 is like a totally new concept at DL. You're going to let your limited experience with an XJ station color our entire company? Thanks for all the prejudgment.


Dood, nothing against the mesaba flight crews, however the ground personnel have shown an ability to complete a changeover with absolute neolitic incompetence. I've missed a scheduled deadhead from a mesaba operated station, had a mesaba station tell me that we are only taking 28 people because of check in problems, when the flight is oversold, and shown up for an early show time at a mesaba station where there was 1 employee that had EVER security searched an aircraft before, the list goes on.

Mesaba bid less, won the award, got the bottom of the barrel people to run the station. They operate on the ground with the hand they are dealt, whether good or bad. Prior proper planning prevents piss poor perfromance.
 
You said: "National media exposure first... next is bent sheet metal and finally loss of life. You dumb bastards." Maybe I'm not getting what you're trying to say. Please elaborate.

I completely agree that there are issues in some XJ ground handling. However, with the XJ DL stations, I completely blame DL for not even training XJ ground staff as a whole on the DL procedures and computer systems adequately. Conversely, I blame NWA for not teaching DL stations how to get an NWA flight out properly. Ultimately, it's all DL/NW driving this ship. An XJ red tail station works just fine except for the occasional hiccups.

Yes, you may get what you pay for, but there is always a learning curve when things are new. Also, would it really be that much different right now if any other company came in and took over for ASA? It's like the Pinnacle people thinking DTW would be soooooo much better if their people were running the show.

Let's agree on this... the station change overs across the board have been debacles and that only DL can fall on the sword for that in rushing the integration with poor staffing and training.

And to get back on topic... I find it very suspicious and hard to believe that ALL of the blame (according to the DOT) is now going towards Mesaba, as if XJet and the crew are completely exonerated from the matter. No single person or organization should have to shoulder the blame for this one. There's plenty of that to go around.
 
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Flap Operator: My comment is directed to all those responsible for staffing these ground stations with inadequately trained personnel, including DL for awarding the lowest bidder knowing full well what these guys were going to be making. Everyone is to blame here...
 
So, I guess an "planned" alternate can be anywhere there is enough concrete regardless if there are planned accomodations for the aircraft and crew? Who planned RST as an alternate and did they think about what might happen if it were to be actually used? Did they call anyone to make sure the aircraft could be handled properly or was it an emergency diversion?

By the way, the FBO handles large aircraft for King's, Prince's and diplomats world-wide (for Mayo Clinic) and they could have handled the aircraft there as well.

Listening to that STRIB tape I heard nothing about passengers unable to deplane but I did hear XJT coordinator say they had another half hour to make a decision and the Mesaba manager state they wanted to get them off if possible...

Listen to the tape again!
 
Listening to that STRIB tape I heard nothing about passengers unable to deplane but I did hear XJT coordinator say they had another half hour to make a decision and the Mesaba manager state they wanted to get them off if possible...

You f-ing retard. YOU listen to the tape. That Mesaba OPS bitch clearly said that she will not let pax off the plane into the terminal, and that "she (XJT CA) needs to leave" the airport.
 

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