Express Jet Flying

[Elusive Napkin]

Nobody knows what will happen yet. We are in talks with more than one entity concerning the airplanes. CAL has been disappointed with the RFP responses, they've received. My understanding is they weren't much less than our final offer to CAL. Add to that the complications of new feed, coupled with the fact that none of you folks even approaches our reliability, sophistication, completion factor, any metric you care to measure. Don't take that personally, with very minor exceptions, you guys are talented, hard-working aviators that work for good companies. But please understand that XJT is a major airline that just happens to fly 50-seaters. (And one of the better majors at that.)

My opinion? CAL is regretting their decision, and when we pull the trigger on whatever new form of business WILL take place later this year, ALL of us are going to be standing there with a look of amazement on our collective faces. Don't count XJT out yet. You guys and girls are not going to believe what happens next. You may even see us give the airplanes back to CAL so as not to upset them, then turn around and purchase new airframes.

I'll make two predictions:

Not a single pilot furloughed
No Concessions

Not everyone here at XJT is as arrogant as LRDRVR about our accomplishments. Yes we are a good company, big whoop.

 

[Alchemy]

We've got a big fat target on our back now that Comair has taken their paycut.

I can't talk to another CAL employee without getting the line "Well you guys gut a nice fat raise on your last contract, didn't ya? I bet ya'll are gonna take concessions soon, haha!"

Yep, CAL management is running a great PR campaign to smear XJET.

 

[LJDRVR]

Not everyone here at XJT is as arrogant as LRDRVR about our accomplishments. Yes we are a good company, big whoop.

Not arrogant at all. Just confident and optimistic. We have a lot of things going for us.

 

[Truckdriver]

TheGuppyKiller

I'm a 7 year CA and mine says just under 90,000. I know a few guys who are not Check Airmen who got over 100,000. Most Check Airmen and off-line instructors are over 100,000. That isn't too bad when you consider what most guys at majors are making as 6 year FO's. The pay at XJT is good, but I wouldn't call us a major flying 50 seat jets. You do have to admit that XJT is a very impressive airline for what it does. There isn't another small jet carrier out there that comes close to our completion factor, recovery time, and customer satisfaction.

 

[LJDRVR]

Check your W2 major airline pilot!

If you're that obtuse, I'm not going to bother explaining it to you.

 

[Elusive Napkin]

Not arrogant at all. Just confident and optimistic. We have a lot of things going for us.

Couldn't agree more. I am glad I am here. But as long as they treat us like a regional (which they will), I will consider myself at a regional. I know what we are classified as by the DOT. But, from a pilot's perspective, being at a major has more to do with pay and QOL than it does with corporate income. Albeit, we have it better than a lot of regionals.

 

[JTrain]

Nobody knows what will happen yet. We are in talks with more than one entity concerning the airplanes. CAL has been disappointed with the RFP responses, they've received. My understanding is they weren't much less than our final offer to CAL. Add to that the complications of new feed, coupled with the fact that none of you folks even approaches our reliability, sophistication, completion factor, any metric you care to measure. Don't take that personally, with very minor exceptions, you guys are talented, hard-working aviators that work for good companies. But please understand that XJT is a major airline that just happens to fly 50-seaters. (And one of the better majors at that.)

My opinion? CAL is regretting their decision, and when we pull the trigger on whatever new form of business WILL take place later this year, ALL of us are going to be standing there with a look of amazement on our collective faces. Don't count XJT out yet. You guys and girls are not going to believe what happens next. You may even see us give the airplanes back to CAL so as not to upset them, then turn around and purchase new airframes.

I'll make two predictions:

Not a single pilot furloughed
No Concessions

Wow LJDRVR - that was a pretty impressive list of accomplishments you tried to rattle off in defence of XJT. Keep on being delusional, son. Take it from me, an ACA/FLYI alum who was there for over five years, witnessed first hand our struggles with UAL in the late 2002 - early 2003 timeframe and went down with the ship; as XJT you guys are a good company with a good product but that won't count for squat with CAL. Be ready for some pretty uncomfortable changes that are darn near inevitable.

Stop kidding yourself about XJT's completion percentage, sophistication of your network, quality of your pilots, etc. Bottom line is (unfortunately) your work is VERY replaceable by the lowest bidder. CAL will probably be smart and gradually introduce other regionals to the fold. They'll start off by offering them easily doable pieces of the XJT network; from CLE various short and mid-length hops in the midwest, a few cities from IAH around the SE and SW, and maybe some cities from EWR as well. They'll probably keep whomever is brought on board (Mesa? TSA? ) small at first but keep on handing off "your" cities to them. Those guys will be growing while you guys stagnate. And of course you'll be sitting there in your ERJ foolishly decrying whats happening but the fact is CAL can do whatever they want because THEY are the major and XJT is just a servant at the CAL house. Don't forget that son. That's a lesson we learned at ACA - what we thought of as "our" flying was gradually handed off to a smorgasboard of low-paying carriers (Mesa, Trans States, Shuttle America) while our growth hit the wall and we went backwards.

I have a great respect for the XJT pilot group, your route network that goes from Newfoundland to Mexico, from the West Coast to the Bahamas, but really the 'quality' product you offer CAL really won't factor too much into this equation. One of the things I thought UAL did right in the late 90s was they trimmed down their UEX flying into three operationally solid regionals; SkyWest, Air Wisconsin, and ACA. In this process they axed Mesa (for performance reasons) and reducing Great Lakes' status within the UEX program. I even clipped a Hemispheres editorial (UAL's inflight magazine) circa 2002 that has a UAL VP waxing on about how good the United Express carriers were. Fastforward through the UAL bankruptcy/cost-cutting era - In 2003, UAL put out tenders for UEX flying and literally the ONLY statistic that mattered was cost. It didn't matter that we at ACA knew the northeast like the back of our hand, had been doing the flying since '89, that we ran a pretty good operational ship. We trimmed our costs, attempted to resign with UAL but we could not match Mesa or Trans States' ridiculously cheap wage structure. Ultimately we tried Independence and are now a part of aviation history. Air Wisconsin took pay cuts, but weren't awarded growth opportunities within the new UEX family, had a bloody divorce and bought into USAir. Only Skywest remains, and thats because they took pay freezes at the time but also had the cheaper cost of business in Utah working for them. Some of the things that make XJT such a good place to be; pay, sophistication of equipment (you guys are CAT II certified), crew meals, other perks and work rules - they are expensive and will work against you in this process. I don't expect CAL to be as ruthless as UAL but the fact is Mesa or TSA or Pinnacle could probably do your work for less, so they will be invited on board.

Lastly it just makes sense for a major partner to diversity in their collection of regionals. You can whipsaw them one against another to keep costs in line, plus you also save yourself from the liability of having feed from only one source (reference the Comair strike of 2001, which essentially shut down Delta's CVG hub - you think CAL wants to put theselves in the poor position of having all their feed coming from one regional, and that any labor problems at the XJT end could screw them). It is inevitable - I don't meant to pop your bubble but I'm a realistic and somebody else is going to get a good chunk of those 69 RJs.

Now LRDRVR - CAL is not at all regretting their decisions regarding you - rather how they are rattling XJT's chains simply makes business sense for them. Lastly - don't get too optimistic about any XJT stand alone business plan. You guys may technically be a major, but don't kid yourself, the only way you did it was by clinging to CAL's coattails. Nobody knows the XJT company name, heck, you're lucky if they happen to notice the "Express" in Continental Express as they board the plane, since as far as the pax are concerned they are flying a CAL flight. Stop being delusional about you guys adding airframes or pursuing a separate business model. XJT is a virtual airline that specializes in providing cheap capacity for CAL. Relative to your peers in the regional industry, you guys are expensive, and that is why we won't see XJT cropping up also doing feeder flying for say NW or DL. Lastly - if you guys choose to go down the "Independence" road - good luck. Hopefully your management will learn from our example, which would probably entail starting whatever 'airline' you guys would become with a considerably reduced fleet, which would mean a pruning the current XJT workforce substantially.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Couldn't agree more. I am glad I am here. But as long as they treat us like a regional (which they will), I will consider myself at a regional. I know what we are classified as by the DOT. But, from a pilot's perspective, being at a major has more to do with pay and QOL than it does with corporate income. Albeit, we have it better than a lot of regionals.

The work rules at XJT rival that of most "major" carriers these days. The pay won't...just based off of the amount of revenue a 50 seat jet generates.

-Neal

 

[Elusive Napkin]

The work rules at XJT rival that of most "major" carriers these days. The pay won't...just based off of the amount of revenue a 50 seat jet generates.

-Neal

Yeah, I was just giving the perspective of how one looks at XJT is respect to the "career". Meaning, the traditional sense. i.e. DAL UAL CAL NWA. You know how it goes. I am very happy with the contract at XJT. The QOL issues have made it a great place to work and more of a career airline. Sorry to lose you on the NC, Neal. You did a great job! Good luck at CAL!

 

[LJDRVR]

Thanks for the heads up JTrain. Not sure why you feel compelled to call me "son". I've worked as a professional pilot for 11 years now, and am thirty nine, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

You bring up some very good points, but you should be aware of a few things:

• There's no way we would go out on our own, the economics of a stand-alone fifty seat airline are simply untenable. (Sorry you guys had to be the trailblazers there.)

• You say we are way more expensive than out competitors. Actually only a little bit. Our economies of scale, and the fact that in many ways we are a virtual airline help us greatly.

• CAL essentially wanted us to do the flying for free. (Cost+nothing) We refused.

• Here's the important thing: Who said anything about CAL? XJT is no longer in negotiations with them. We may even give them the 69 airplanes back to avoid angering them. Don't forget that even though we're a virtual airline, we have the balance sheet to buy Delta. In five to ten years, I think you'll see a very small, if any portion of our business connected to CAL.

You can call me delusional, but respectfully, you're full of it. I'm a realist. My eggs are in many baskets.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Yeah, I was just giving the perspective of how one looks at XJT is respect to the "career". Meaning, the traditional sense. i.e. DAL UAL CAL NWA. You know how it goes. I am very happy with the contract at XJT. The QOL issues have made it a great place to work and more of a career airline. Sorry to lose you on the NC, Neal. You did a great job! Good luck at CAL!

Oh I agree with you there...and that is why I am leaving for CAL. But those that stayed at XJT will, provided the flying continues, have a great career. Thanks for the kind words!

-Neal

 

[MINIME]

LJDBVR,

You seem like a fairly confident person who perhaps knows the inside scoop between your company and CAL. Frankly, I'm glad to see you stand up for your company and feel optomistic about its future. Unfortunately, I'd like to say that I saw this coming long time ago since the Comair readjusting.

However, do you think that XJT with its cash on hand and its reputation of service and perfomance, could potentially break into the 170-190 market for another carrier? Of course this would mean going into someone else's backyard but this is the norm now at days. Would there be any scope issues preventing this? If this whole reduction by CAL is going to happen, personally, I'd like to see you guys do something to that effect. I think it would be profitable. It's innevitable, the 70 seaters are here, you might as well join the club and play as clean as possible.

 

[JTrain]

--------------

 

[JumpCaptain]

...But please understand that XJT is a major airline that just happens to fly 50-seaters. (And one of the better majors at that.)...

A real "major airline" wouldn't hire a 600 hour pilot.

 

[LJDRVR]

A real "major airline" wouldn't hire a 600 hour pilot.

So Eastern, United, and Delta weren't major airlines in the sixties? Learn about your profession, Rick.

 

[LJDRVR]

LJDBVR,

You seem like a fairly confident person who perhaps knows the inside scoop between your company and CAL.... However, do you think that XJT with its cash on hand and its reputation of service and perfomance, could potentially break into the 170-190 market for another carrier?

I don't have any inside scoop. Those that do would be breaking the law if they commented on it in public. I'm just a stupid airplane driver carefully reading between the lines of what I hear and read about my employer. Regarding your question, my belief is that at least a portion of XJT's future will lie in an area not yet well defined in the industry. When and if it happens, I think "shocked" will be the adjective that will best describes our impression. I would not rule out the 170/190's, but again, if it happens, I don't think it's going to resemble any current flying out there.

 

[JumpCaptain]

So Eastern, United, and Delta weren't major airlines in the sixties? Learn about your profession, Rick.

I'm familiar with the history. That was a long time ago.

 

[BigLebowski]

XJet is a major??? Please could someone over there pass me some of that kool-aid you're drinking.

Lets face it boys and girls...we all fly emb's or crj's...we're all the same, if you really want to get down to it we're all "bottom feeders" for the mainline.

You don't believe me? just go talk to a senior captain at one...he'll set you straight.

-TSA (Regional) Pilot

 

[BluDevAv8r]

A real "major airline" wouldn't hire a 600 hour pilot.

What about an 1800 hour pilot with no ATP or turbine PIC?

-Neal

 

[airjackson]

LJDRVR,


You must be a dream to fly with over a four day trip. What with your ego, I'm surprised there's any room left for the Captain. You pick that attitude up at the Air Force Academy? Oh, wait....

 

[LJDRVR]

airjackson,

Actually, I begin every briefing with rule number one: I'm stupid." Glad to see you're so capable of a complete personality assessment based on a few posts. For instance, I could believe that based on the content of your last post that you're an ass, but I know better.

I apologize that my writing skills do not allow me communicate better than they do, but my points are simply these:

• I know full well that my company doesn't operate Boeing or Airbus equipment, and never will.

• Our senior pilots do not make over 200K a year. They never will.

• We're simply a provider of feed for a legacy carrier. A "virtual" airline.

But;

• XJT meets every definition of a major, and not just the DOT stats.

• Our work rules are outstanding, and compare favorably to other majors.

• Our maintenance and reliability metrics are second to none. Period. Produce data that says otherwise and I'll recant my assertion.

• Our safety culture and quality of training compares favorably with other majors.

• Customers rank us as number five in customer satisfaction, above several other majors and the only 50-seat airline in the top ten.

You guys seem to think I'm attempting to inflate my sense of self worth and ego by suggesting that Express Jet Airlines is a legacy, and that's simply not the case. What I am saying is that I take pride in the fact that we are a major airline, and certainly a good place to hang your hat for a career. It is my belief that those of you who think this whole 69 airplane bugaboo is simply an opening salvo of a battle that will find our pilot ranks saddled with pay cuts and pleading to hang on to our very existence are sadly mistaken.

Big Leibowski, you think you're a bottom feeder? You and the other talented aviators at TSA are most certainly not, although if you continue to allow the jaded opinions of senior Legacy Captains to define who you are and your sense of self worth, then you may be. Don't forget, these are the same jokers who brought you the B-scale industry, and failed to insist that all jet flying be done by their pilots back in the the early nineties when the CRJ first came on the scene.

So, to sum it up, I'm proud of my company, love my profession, and see the glass as half-full. Don't like it? Bite me.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

XJet is a major??? Please could someone over there pass me some of that kool-aid you're drinking.

Lets face it boys and girls...we all fly emb's or crj's...we're all the same, if you really want to get down to it we're all "bottom feeders" for the mainline.

You don't believe me? just go talk to a senior captain at one...he'll set you straight.

-TSA (Regional) Pilot

ok!

1. please get rid of some of the airplanes that you flew. no one cares and its annoying trying to read your post.

2. all senior captains are males?

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Check your W2 major airline pilot!

uh oh

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees back! Now its The Guppy Killer where as before it was Guppy Killer (How original) :uzi: TheGuppyKiller

 

[illtake2]

LJDRVR, just a quick question, when you poop are your turds gold or silver?

EMB170Pilot, I wouldn't make fun of anyone's profile look at your name lets all bow down to the guy who flies the big 70 seater.

We don't need to base our pay on how many seats we fly but how much of the cockpit is left over when you fit your big head in there. Start off with 100,000 a year and if you take up 10% then you get 90,000 you two might keep companies in business not only is there no room left but you take up rows 1 and 2. So ExpressJet and Shuttle should be charging you to fill up there plane with crap

 

[LJDRVR]

LJDRVR, just a quick question, when you poop are your turds gold or silver?

EMB170Pilot, I wouldn't make fun of anyone's profile look at your name lets all bow down to the guy who flies the big 70 seater.

We don't need to base our pay on how many seats we fly but how much of the cockpit is left over when you fit your big head in there. Start off with 100,000 a year and if you take up 10% then you get 90,000 you two might keep companies in business not only is there no room left but you take up rows 1 and 2. So ExpressJet and Shuttle should be charging you to fill up there plane with crap

Dude, you forgot to take your meds.

 

[Shrek]

AND.....back to the thread.......

NOONE will know (ESPECIALLY PILOTS) until it is already decided. The only facts that I know of are.....TSA, CHQ, nad MESA bid for that flying......the results are not known obviously.

Other than that it is speculation........

 

[Elusive Napkin]

A real "major airline" wouldn't hire a 600 hour pilot.

You are an incredible idiot if you really believe that crazy generalization you just made. There are plenty of incredibly talented pilots with 600 hours who do a great job flying an RJ. What are you, one of these guys yelling about young guys "not paying their dues"? Its such a stupid notion it makes me want to puke. Personally, I think if someone was capable of gaining an interview; subsequently passing that interview; and passing training, they should be congratulated. However, you would rather use them as an excuse for the lowering of the bar. How pathetic.......

Furthermore, it is a good point that UAL, DAL, and all the other legacy's hired individuals with this flight time in the past. Saying that it was a long time ago doesn't negate that point. It just serves to verify that you have no point.

 

[JetlinkFO]

LJDRVR-- Are you Newark or Houston based?

 

[Turkey Shoot]

You are an incredible idiot if you really believe that crazy generalization you just made. There are plenty of incredibly talented pilots with 600 hours who do a great job flying an RJ. What are you, one of these guys yelling about young guys "not paying their dues"? Its such a stupid notion it makes me want to puke. Personally, I think if someone was capable of gaining an interview; subsequently passing that interview; and passing training, they should be congratulated. However, you would rather use them as an excuse for the lowering of the bar. How pathetic.......

Furthermore, it is a good point that UAL, DAL, and all the other legacy's hired individuals with this flight time in the past. Saying that it was a long time ago doesn't negate that point. It just serves to verify that you have no point.

I have to chime in here. Even though a pilot is talented at 600 hours, it doesn't make up for experience or knowledge unless it's being done at a military level. Then in which case you've passed all of the tests to prove yourself "Born to Fly." So taking a 22 year old with 600 hundred hours is not in my humble opinion, a good move. When the crap hit the proverbial fan, I'd rather have someone who's had a few more hours and a bit more experience. Talent will not get through an emergency, training and experience will.

One of the big reasons that guys want new folks to pay their dues is that new guys don't think they are worth anything and will fly for nothing. I've seen it too many times, "I'll work for free!" Where as a guys who been in the meat grinder for a few years believes his or her skills valuable.

As for passing an interview, there many of those guys out there that went to the right school that had a deal with an airline to give their grads pref interviews. The guys that get there without these crutches should be congratulated, not the ones that used Mom and Pop's money to go to one of these expensive schools to get into that Shiny Jet with min experience.

Once you hang around the industry a little longer, you'll begin to see it. This too is what we like call, "Experience." Through experience comes judgment. You don't get it form talent.

I'm not trying to slam you or anybody else that is doing this but I am willing to bet my bottom dollar if the mins to fly for a 121 outfit were ATP mins, there would be many less folks flooding the market. Why? Because it sucks getting 1500 hours instructing. It's tough and hard work. Something that many out there lack the intestines for. Not that you do but you know who I'm talking about. You know some of them no doubt.

 

[Elusive Napkin]

I have to chime in here. Even though a pilot is talented at 600 hours, it doesn't make up for experience or knowledge unless it's being done at a military level. Then in which case you've passed all of the tests to prove yourself "Born to Fly." So taking a 22 year old with 600 hundred hours is not in my humble opinion, a good move. When the crap hit the proverbial fan, I'd rather have someone who's had a few more hours and a bit more experience. Talent will not get through an emergency, training and experience will.

One of the big reasons that guys want new folks to pay their dues is that new guys don't think they are worth anything and will fly for nothing. I've seen it too many times, "I'll work for free!" Where as a guys who been in the meat grinder for a few years believes his or her skills valuable.

As for passing an interview, there many of those guys out there that went to the right school that had a deal with an airline to give their grads pref interviews. The guys that get there without these crutches should be congratulated, not the ones that used Mom and Pop's money to go to one of these expensive schools to get into that Shiny Jet with min experience.

Once you hang around the industry a little longer, you'll begin to see it. This too is what we like call, "Experience." Through experience comes judgment. You don't get it form talent.

I'm not trying to slam you or anybody else that is doing this but I am willing to bet my bottom dollar if the mins to fly for a 121 outfit were ATP mins, there would be many less folks flooding the market. Why? Because it sucks getting 1500 hours instructing. It's tough and hard work. Something that many out there lack the intestines for. Not that you do but you know who I'm talking about. You know some of them no doubt.

I totally see your point. Experience definetly makes a pilot better in every aspect. Personally I wasn't hired with 600 hours, but I didn't have ATP minimums. I just hate the sweeping generalization that everyone working at an airline with less than ATP mins and 1500 hours of dual has SJS. It just isn't true. Some us actually worked hard and paid for our flight training ourselves and don't like being talked down to simply because we accomplished something.

{Edited for spelling errors I didn't want to answer to later.}