Express Jet Flying

[illtake2]

Everyone is saying that they are going to get the flying. Mesa says that they have paid for the simulators and are ready to go, CHQ is saying the same thing, TSA is beefing up the training department and have 9 or more new check airmen. Does anyone really know what is going on.

 

[starcheck1]

Does anyone really know what is going on.

no...and no one will for probably 6 months

 

[JetlinkFO]

CHQ is looking to get out of the 50 seat market, so I don't think they're getting it. Mesa is probably a front runner because they're whores. Trans States is using this as a negotiating leverage with their pilots (their CBA is amendable in June) Also, GayJets is planning to expand I think with a base in San Antonio, so I'm not sure if they're hiring check airmen to get the X-Jet flying or to grow GayJets. ExpressJet management has made it clear they're doing everything possible to keep the airplanes. I've heard of all kinds of uses they've decided upon.

 

[ASAFOE120]

I hope it works out for the Express Jet guys and they get to keep their flying. No one should be happy about the prospect of growth at the expense of someone elses job. This whole industry has gotten so pathetic!

just my $.02

 

[wahoo250]

all i have to say is: if the airplanes dont stay with XJT i hope they leave the country.
With or without the pilots. itll be better than watching them go to some carrier that underbids.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Nobody will know for another 6 months, anything else you hear is merely speculation.

 

[AviatorTx]

My gut feeling is that the CAL flying is gone.

The question remains as to how much OTHER flying we will be able to find for those planes. I think the XR's are pretty marketable. As for the LR's... That's another story.

So, Starcheck was correct. Nobody knows. I just think everyone is being extremely, if not overly optimistic.

 

[difete]

Where is the source for all this rumoring?

 

[Apache 5]

Late September we will know the fate of the 69 airplanes, whether we (XJT) are giving them back to CAL, whether we are leasing them from CAL for another purpose, or whether we and CAL have made up and are continuing with our relationship.

The last 2 options are most appealing to me- we cannot give them back to CAL so that a bottom feeder company like MEsa or TSA or worse can get their hands on them. Find your own f-ing planes, even if I am out of a job.

 

[illtake2]

Just a quick question why is TSA a bottom feeder? Is it because they took a crappy contract to gain 70 seat flying...doubt that. Maybe because they took concessions to gain some flying.....don't think that is true. So TSA stands up to Uncle Hulas and doesn't give in so we are considered bottom feeders.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Just a quick question why is TSA a bottom feeder? Is it because they took a crappy contract to gain 70 seat flying...doubt that. Maybe because they took concessions to gain some flying.....don't think that is true. So TSA stands up to Uncle Hulas and doesn't give in so we are considered bottom feeders.

I would not call TSA a bottom feeder, at least not for the time being. If you all end up flying our airplanes around for less than us, then you will be bottom feeders. We shall see what happens.

 

[imacdog]

I would not call TSA a bottom feeder, at least not for the time being. If you all end up flying our airplanes around for less than us, then you will be bottom feeders. We shall see what happens.

Welcome to what many other regionals are going through.

 

[JumpCaptain]

Just a quick question why is TSA a bottom feeder? Is it because they took a crappy contract to gain 70 seat flying...doubt that. Maybe because they took concessions to gain some flying.....don't think that is true. So TSA stands up to Uncle Hulas and doesn't give in so we are considered bottom feeders.

Outstanding!!! Take2 is completely correct!! TSA, if anything, is the exact opposite of a "bottom feeder"!! They are the ones that stood up to Goliath!! They did exactly what everyone on this F'n message board has been advocating for, for years!

They were offered more flying, more expansion and larger aircraft and they put their collective foot down!!! Well, look what they got for it.

Well now, XJTers are gonna be pissed if you take there flying!?! WTF?

Well, I guess you better turn that down too.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, It’s those darned passengers whipsawing us all against each other!!!

 

[airjackson]

Late September we will know the fate of the 69 airplanes, whether we (XJT) are giving them back to CAL, whether we are leasing them from CAL for another purpose, or whether we and CAL have made up and are continuing with our relationship.

The last 2 options are most appealing to me- we cannot give them back to CAL so that a bottom feeder company like MEsa or TSA or worse can get their hands on them. Find your own f-ing planes, even if I am out of a job.

Great, just what we need. Another uninformed punk FO spouting off about that which he knows ZERO. Get a F-ing clue

 

[theo]

Outstanding!!! Take2 is completely correct!! TSA, if anything, is the exact opposite of a "bottom feeder"!! They are the ones that stood up to Goliath!! They did exactly what everyone on this F'n message board has been advocating for, for years!

They were offered more flying, more expansion and larger aircraft and they put their collective foot down!!! Well, look what they got for it.

Well now, XJTers are gonna be pissed if you take there flying!?! WTF?

Well, I guess you better turn that down too.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, It’s those darned passengers whipsawing us all against each other!!!

What did they get for it?...Best I can tell is nothing.

 

[Alchemy]

Of course we'll be pissed if you start flying ex-Expressjet aircraft on ex-Expressjet routes, all while making about 5 dollars less per hour per pilot on average to fly the exact same aircraft. Not that there's anything we can do about it. There's nothing "uninformed" about Apache 5's comments. Hopefully that won't happen. I'd rather see the aircraft parked than some other pilots, or even our own pilots flying them for less pay.

My only hope is that if TranStates does get the CAL flying, XJET uses it's 200 million cash on hand for a hostile buyout of TransStates. Oh yeah, then how about we staple GayJets to the bottom of the integrated seniority.

 

[BankAccount=0$]

What did they get for it?...Best I can tell is nothing.

And that is exactly what is going to happen if this industry (regional airlines) is ever going to improve. TSA stood their ground, they didn't cave in when Uncle Hulas started GeauxJets, and they definetly are not in my eyes viewed as bottom-feeders.

If we are ever going to turn this ship around, collectively the regional pilots have to stop the downward slide of payscales and work rules. It doesn't matter if you're ALPA, Teamsters, or SkyWest's inhouse pilot group. If you are willing to do this job for free, then there is never going to be any improvement to regional airline pilots pay or QOL. Your collective managements are going to dangle the growth carrot in front of you over and over again, but why grow? You want the quick upgrade right? We all know that upgrade equals more money, and most importantly the coveted PIC time to get on with a major. But wait, the growth is moving in the direction of 70+ seat aircraft a'la EMB-170's, and CL-705's. So everytime a new 70 seater is placed with a regional airline, the majors park another portion of a mainline narrowbody's flying in the desert. Think about it, less major airline airframes means less jobs to be had when you get your coveted 1000 PIC in your shiny new 70 seater. Now you're stuck at a regional flying a 70+ seat aircraft that replaced a good paying narrowbody at mainline for 70 bucks an hour with crappy QOL.

I happen to be at ExpressJet. If the 69 airframes go to another regional then I will lose my job in the next year. The bottom line is that none of the regionals "own" their flying, it's mainlines to decide what to do with it, and whom to fly the work.

 

[theo]

And that is exactly what is going to happen if this industry (regional airlines) is ever going to improve. TSA stood their ground, they didn't cave in when Uncle Hulas started GeauxJets, and they definetly are not in my eyes viewed as bottom-feeders.

If we are ever going to turn this ship around, collectively the regional pilots have to stop the downward slide of payscales and work rules. It doesn't matter if you're ALPA, Teamsters, or SkyWest's inhouse pilot group. If you are willing to do this job for free, then there is never going to be any improvement to regional airline pilots pay or QOL. Your collective managements are going to dangle the growth carrot in front of you over and over again, but why grow? You want the quick upgrade right? We all know that upgrade equals more money, and most importantly the coveted PIC time to get on with a major. But wait, the growth is moving in the direction of 70+ seat aircraft a'la EMB-170's, and CL-705's. So everytime a new 70 seater is placed with a regional airline, the majors park another portion of a mainline narrowbody's flying in the desert. Think about it, less major airline airframes means less jobs to be had when you get your coveted 1000 PIC in your shiny new 70 seater. Now you're stuck at a regional flying a 70+ seat aircraft that replaced a good paying narrowbody at mainline for 70 bucks an hour with crappy QOL.

I happen to be at ExpressJet. If the 69 airframes go to another regional then I will lose my job in the next year. The bottom line is that none of the regionals "own" their flying, it's mainlines to decide what to do with it, and whom to fly the work.

In a vacuum what you say is true. It is all about suply and demand. As long as there is not enough supply of pilots to staff a Regional who will only pay X, then the majors will be able to charge Y. The problem is reality keeps sticking its ugly head into this pipedream. First your high cost world you want to live in has been repeatedly rejected by the customer. That is why so many airlines have gone to bankruptcy and why those who havent are desperately trying to stay out. That is why people flock to work for companies like Skywest and Jet Blue and others where payrates would be classified as low yet people still WANT to work there. That is why thousands of highly competent and professional pilots still make a good living working for Regionals all over the country. You don't hear much from those guys as they have a life and don't spend a lot of time swinging at ghosts in an effort to stop the unstoppable.

What we have become is a commodity industry where the only real differentiation to most customers is price. When you rerach that stage than the low cost competitor will always win. And there is no stopping whoever the next entrepeneur is who is willing to step in and start a low cost carrier every time ticket prices start climbing. If you don't like it you better talk the government into reregulation. Oh wait that would be just another pipedream.

 

[JumpCaptain]

This is one of the best discussions I've read on this topic and there are thousands out there.

You guys are exactly right!! I've been screaming for re-regulation since I can remember.

It may be a pipedream, but it's the ONLY thing that will save this industry. Passengers will buy the cheapest ticket no matter what. It's a fact!

The majority of pilots would rather make chump change flying than go out and get a real job. It's a fact!! Think about it.

Consider how little could they pay you before you decided to get out of flying and I bet it's probably less than you make right now.


Do the math and it makes sense. If you allow supply and demand to run its course, the mean pilot salary will eventually average out at slightly above what the average pilot is willing to fly for and we're obviously not there yet.

This is why there's no point in getting mad at each other for "stealing" each others flying. It's all supply and demand and there's no fighting it.

The ONLY thing that can stop supply and demand is Regulation!!!

 

[AviatorTx]

And that is exactly what is going to happen if this industry (regional airlines) is ever going to improve. TSA stood their ground, they didn't cave in when Uncle Hulas started GeauxJets, and they definetly are not in my eyes viewed as bottom-feeders.

True. There is NO REASON for an XJT pilot to bash the TSA pilots. The TSA pilots have been fighting one heck of a fight, and have not just rolled over and taken it up the but like Mesa, or Chiniqua. They did not agree to do 70 seat flying for 50 seat pay like Skywest. TSA just has a Management team that sucks monkey balls. The pilots ARE trying.

 

[Shrek]

W O R D.......We have NOT given up....nor will we.

 

[pilotkppsg]

I agree w/ Shrek, TSA guys have been backed into a corner w/ no help and are in the fight for their livelihood. I don't wanna lose the planes to some a$$bag like Mesa, Gay Jets or Republic's infamous Indy triad.

BTW, this is a true story and if you wanna call bull$hit on it then PM me for details. The other day on my commute home from CLE, I went through ORD and I saw a Gay Jets pilot poke his head out of the jetway in terminal E, looked left and right like he was crossing the street, then BOLTED to the restroom. So if they have to go to work and live like that, how can they call themselves professional pilots, you shouldn't be afraid to go to work.

 

[Mr. PFT here]

U all suck!!! get lives!!!! i think u should all quit if u hate it so much!!

 

[temcgrew]

Find your own f-ing planes, even if I am out of a job

I've been looking for a few RJ's to lease, they are a little out of my price range since I only work for a "bottom feeder" company.

I would not call TSA a bottom feeder, at least not for the time being. If you all end up flying our airplanes around for less than us, then you will be bottom feeders.

O.K. great point, thanks for that.... so if you end up keeping the flying because your company lowered the rates, then you wouldn't be a bottom feeder?

Is the name calling going to extend to every company since we all BID on this flying? Of course companies put out a bid to find the lowest rates. This is why regional airlines should not be our career goal.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Is the name calling going to extend to every company since we all BID on this flying? Of course companies put out a bid to find the lowest rates. This is why regional airlines should not be our career goal.

Wrong attitude big time! That worked fine 15 years ago when regionals actually flew regional routes and size aircraft. Now the so called "regional airliners" have airplanes the passenger size of DC-9s flying between major cities and crossing a couple time zones in one flight. If that's regional, then what's national? In other words, get a clue. Larger airplanes flying longer routes to bigger cities for way less rates and WORK RULES means less and less flying at the "majors" and more concessions at the "majors". Got it.

 

[smokey999]

From all of us TSA guys, thanks to everyone (well, mostly everyone) for your support.

 

[temcgrew]

Now the so called "regional airliners" have airplanes the passenger size of DC-9s flying between major cities and crossing a couple time zones in one flight. If that's regional, then what's national? In other words, get a clue. Larger airplanes flying longer routes to bigger cities for way less rates and WORK RULES means less and less flying at the "majors" and more concessions at the "majors". Got it.__________________

That sounds good, except for the fact that we are still all CONTRACT carriers. GOT IT? FLYi tried to change who they were and look what happened when they didn't have any CONTRACT flying to do. Call it what you want, we are still all putting BIDS in and the major airline will pick the lowest bidder. It was like that 15 years ago, and it is still the same now.

I'm not commenting on the state of the majors or the fact that RJ's are flying mainline routes, I agree with you here.
My comment was to the person who said that TSA would be considered a "bottom feeder" if they got the flying for a lower rate.

 

[soardtk]

And that is exactly what is going to happen if this industry (regional airlines) is ever going to improve. TSA stood their ground, they didn't cave in when Uncle Hulas started GeauxJets, and they definetly are not in my eyes viewed as bottom-feeders.

If we are ever going to turn this ship around, collectively the regional pilots have to stop the downward slide of payscales and work rules. It doesn't matter if you're ALPA, Teamsters, or SkyWest's inhouse pilot group. If you are willing to do this job for free, then there is never going to be any improvement to regional airline pilots pay or QOL. Your collective managements are going to dangle the growth carrot in front of you over and over again, but why grow? You want the quick upgrade right? We all know that upgrade equals more money, and most importantly the coveted PIC time to get on with a major. But wait, the growth is moving in the direction of 70+ seat aircraft a'la EMB-170's, and CL-705's. So everytime a new 70 seater is placed with a regional airline, the majors park another portion of a mainline narrowbody's flying in the desert. Think about it, less major airline airframes means less jobs to be had when you get your coveted 1000 PIC in your shiny new 70 seater. Now you're stuck at a regional flying a 70+ seat aircraft that replaced a good paying narrowbody at mainline for 70 bucks an hour with crappy QOL.

I happen to be at ExpressJet. If the 69 airframes go to another regional then I will lose my job in the next year. The bottom line is that none of the regionals "own" their flying, it's mainlines to decide what to do with it, and whom to fly the work.

Finally, someone who finally gets it!!! By the way, I have spent 6 years in the regional world in both seats and need the PIC 121 time to move on. I thank the USAir/America West pilots group for keeping the 190's, hope the DALPA boys strike to keep their scope (even though I will probably lose my current job), hope the NW boys vote down the TA to keep all flying over 50 seats at mainline!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also, I have been furloughed once and have flown for a now defunct airline. MAINLINERS............HOLD THE LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[flyer172r]

Of course we'll be pissed if you start flying ex-Expressjet aircraft on ex-Expressjet routes, all while making about 5 dollars less per hour per pilot on average to fly the exact same aircraft. Not that there's anything we can do about it. There's nothing "uninformed" about Apache 5's comments. Hopefully that won't happen. I'd rather see the aircraft parked than some other pilots, or even our own pilots flying them for less pay.

My only hope is that if TranStates does get the CAL flying, XJET uses it's 200 million cash on hand for a hostile buyout of TransStates. Oh yeah, then how about we staple GayJets to the bottom of the integrated seniority.

Can you stage a hostile buyout of a privately held company? I'm no expert but I dont' think you can, although I'd love for someone to take TSA Holdings away from Hulie.

 

[LJDRVR]

Nobody knows what will happen yet. We are in talks with more than one entity concerning the airplanes. CAL has been disappointed with the RFP responses, they've received. My understanding is they weren't much less than our final offer to CAL. Add to that the complications of new feed, coupled with the fact that none of you folks even approaches our reliability, sophistication, completion factor, any metric you care to measure. Don't take that personally, with very minor exceptions, you guys are talented, hard-working aviators that work for good companies. But please understand that XJT is a major airline that just happens to fly 50-seaters. (And one of the better majors at that.)

My opinion? CAL is regretting their decision, and when we pull the trigger on whatever new form of business WILL take place later this year, ALL of us are going to be standing there with a look of amazement on our collective faces. Don't count XJT out yet. You guys and girls are not going to believe what happens next. You may even see us give the airplanes back to CAL so as not to upset them, then turn around and purchase new airframes.

I'll make two predictions:

Not a single pilot furloughed
No Concessions