Expired Medical

[Cambereffect]

Howdy,

There as been a dicussion at the place at work and we don't seem to be getting anywhere, maybe somebody here will have a good insight or suggestions.

One of the instructor got a medical on 11-16-2002, a first class (edit: he is less then 40 years old). During an instructor dicussion/bs session, we were talking about medicals and he realized he had been flying a year without a medical.... he got his last medical was 11-10-2006, four years apart... talk about a "ooops" and "oh sh*t!"
So now the debate is whether to tell the FAA about it and get a slap on the hand or just keep quiet.... My belief is that the FAA will find out because on the application forms its asks how many hours you have flown in the last six months (Don't know how many hours he put, but he did put some hours in that column, so he basically admits that he has flown without a medical...) so I say call the FSDO and be honest, some say stay under a rock.

So does the FAA actually check that stuff?

What would you guys, and ladys, side on this matter?

CB

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Hmmmmmmm....

 

[Princedietrich]

It would depend on the type of flying the guy was doing.

If he was giving instruction to pilots that were rated in the aircraft and could legally act as PIC, then the instructor doesn't even need a medical. He could fly on the trainee's medical. Examples would be giving commercial instruction or BFRs or IPCs.

If he was giving instruction to student pilots who aren't rated to act as legal PIC yet, then he has to have the second class medical.

My advice for this guy is that if there hasn't been a stink raised over it yet, there probably won't be. Just keep quiet and stay under the radar.

 

[NOMAD]

61.23(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a valid medical certificate—
(1) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking—
(i) A sport pilot certificate with glider or balloon privileges; or
(ii) A pilot certificate with a glider category rating or balloon class rating;
(2) When exercising the privileges of a sport pilot certificate with privileges in a glider or balloon;
(3) When exercising the privileges of a pilot certificate with a glider category or balloon class rating;
(4) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with—
(i) A sport pilot rating in a glider or balloon; or
(ii) A glider category rating;
(5) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate if the person is not acting as pilot in command or serving as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(6) When exercising the privileges of a ground instructor certificate;
(7) When serving as an examiner or check airman during the administration of a test or check for a certificate, rating, or authorization conducted in a flight simulator or flight training device; or
(8) When taking a test or check for a certificate, rating, or authorization conducted in a flight simulator or flight training device.

Once his 3rd class expired all flight experience would have to fall under the above. I would assume he was getting PAID since his 2nd class expired. Ouch.

But I personally would make the FAA work for that paycheck.

 

[CA1900]

If he was giving instruction to student pilots who aren't rated to act as legal PIC yet, then he has to have the second class medical.

Third-class medical, actually. Flight instruction, even for money, is not a commercial operation. While a commercial certificate is currently a prerequisite for the CFI, it wasn't always.

This is covered in FAR 61.23:

(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, a person—
...(3) Must hold at least a third-class medical certificate—
(i) When exercising the privileges of a private pilot certificate;
(ii) When exercising the privileges of a recreational pilot certificate;
(iii) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate;
(iv) When exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate...if the person is acting as pilot in command or is serving as a required flight crewmember...

Once his 3rd class expired all flight experience would have to fall under the above. I would assume he was getting PAID since his 2nd class expired. Ouch.

Pay is irrelevant. The only question is, were any of his students during that last year ineligible to act as pilot in command of those aircraft in which they were being taught? (Medical, and appropriate category, class, and [if applicable] type rating?) If the students could all have acted as PIC of their instructional aircraft--say, if the instructor was doing CFI training, acro training, tailwheel, high performance, complex, etc., but no private training or initial multi-engine training or anything like that--then he was perfectly legal to teach with no medical at all. Yes, for money.

 

[Princedietrich]

Ah, well I was just going off of past employer experience. Every place I worked for required me to have a 2nd class when I was instructing.

 

[CA1900]

I generally kept up a second-class medical, because as an instructor I was regularly hired to do sightseeing and photo flights, and repositioning airplanes for my employer. All of those are commercial operations, and thus required me to have a second-class medical.

Perhaps being available for that kind of thing is why those employers required it? Or it could very well be that they were under the erroneous assumption, as many are, that instructing is a commercial operation.

 

[Princedietrich]

It's possible. But better to be safe than sorry, eh?

 

[Choppy]

I would go to them and self disclose. It will be a lot better than them finding out and revoking our certificates which is what they will do. Then you will have to start from scratch again. They will probably let you keep your cert. if you tell them and give you a 6 month vacation. Maybe not any vacation at all, but you can guarantee a long one if you don't tell and they find out

 

[Amish RakeFight]

If you've had any eye exams or GP physicals during the expired period, you might want to have this documented and furnished if you're going to contactthem. Hopefully, you can show them that your general health was still in goood condition even though you hadn't seen an AME.

....not saying that this is a saving grace, but it may help your cause, especially sicne it seems like the person made an honest mistake or oversight.

 

[Cambereffect]

...

double post

 

[Cambereffect]

...

I would agree with Choppy that he should probably self diclose it, although it seems easy just not to tell anybody. I would imagine they would find out if he put that he had flown ~200 hrs in the last 6 months... I mean the FAA is busy but their computer systems will catch it.

CB

 

[Amish RakeFight]

This could be a longshot, but would a NASA form help?

 

[AlabamaMan!!]

Your friend may want to spend the money to join AOPA and consult their legal services before he does anything. You never know what kind of mood ol Chip is in at the FSDO and he could decide to fry his a$$. I'm sure this isn't the first time this has happened to someone and they may have a better answer for him then anyone here on Flightinfo.com.

I would definetely seek some kind of legal opinion before he says anything. They technically could revoke any certificates of pilots that your friend endorsed for checkrides, etc. since he technically couldnt act as a PIC when he needed to for those specific dual lessons.

 

[Mountain Troll]

You don't need a medical to instruct, however, if you were the PIC, self disclose. A freind of mine lost his medical due to surgery for one year. He was one teaching MO, but no student pilots, no initial multi students. Also, I may be wrong, but, I don't think the logged time in the last sixmonths will raise a red flag, but consult an attorney/AOPA legal staff first. Good luck!

 

[midlifeflyer]

If the students could all have acted as PIC of their instructional aircraft--say, if the instructor was doing CFI training, acro training, tailwheel, high performance, complex, etc., but no private training or initial multi-engine training or anything like that--then he was perfectly legal to teach with no medical at all. Yes, for money.

Don't forget one more - no instrument training where the CFI needs to be a safety pilot. Just a minor nit, but people are forever forgetting that a CFI needs to have a medical when acting as PIC or as a required crewmember

BTW, the recommendation to consult an aviation attorney is a good one.

 

[JediNein]

An aviation attorney is a good place to go.

A NASA form is another good thing to do.

Maybe sitting down and figuring out how many hours were dual given to non-PIC students and solo flights might be a good exercise. And were any of those lessons in ultralights or LSAs?

But a CFI without a medical can still instruct, get paid, and log flight time without raising any red flags.

Don't do it again.

 

[AC560]

A NASA form is another good thing to do.

I don't see how a NASA form would be applicable to the situation, lawyer is probably the best advice. Even if it did you need to file it within 10 days of the incident and be able to prove it.

"The operations covered by the program include departure, en route, approach, and landing operations and procedures, air traffic control procedures and equipment, crew and air traffic control communications, aircraft cabin operations, aircraft movement on the airport, near midair collisions, aircraft maintenance and recordkeeping, and airport conditions or services".

 

[JediNein]

So NASA didn't say 'include but are not limited to. . ." It's free and doesn't get revealed to anyone except if a criminal activity (flying without a medical is not) or accident is reported.

 

[Fedora]

What a dumb s**t!
Better off leaving this one alone. It opens a whole can of worms if the Feds get a whiff of it. If he was not legal to fly during any of his flight instructions, many of his students may be affected.
If he recommended a student pilot for a rating ride while he was illegal, for example, the student's certificate might be invalid as well, and so on.
Bury this one in a deep hole and cross your fingers that anyone who knows keeps their mouth shut.
The FAA medical branch cares less what you do after you get your medical certificate. Fly or don't fly, doesn't matter to them.
Also shame on any FBO that was using this guy and not knowing the status of his certificates.

The NASA report is a good idea for sure.