Expired CFI - Can he teach flying?

[UndauntedFlyer]

If a person has an expired CFI certificate can that person give flight instruction to a pre-solo student, realizing that it won't count toward any of the flight time requirements? This would be in the owner's airplane with the owner giving instruction to his grandson.

I think it's OK because there is no rule against.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Expired CFI is akin to not having a CFI. If he's not signing the book and logging requisite hours, then it should be fine. Its just not official instruction that can count as dual towards certification. The PIC needs a current medical, of course.

UF, arent you an FAA examiner, too?

 

[JAFI]

My 2 cents:

Any pilot can “teach” aviation. The question here “Is the Expired CFI - exercising the privileges of a Flight Instructor”? What is the CFI signing off? I would not even think of getting paid for this “instruction”. You don't need to confuse any question that instruction by an expired CFI was given.

A Flight Instructor may record flight time in a student log book (in your student’s case, he will not be able to log his non CFI’s flight time).
If any incident happens would the insurance company pay off if “instruction” was given when the policy may not allow it?

And a question I would ask: Expired CFI, when was the last time you gave instruction to a primary student and do you feel current to do so? Here is where I ask a couple questions any current Instructor would know. Sometimes I get a deer in the headlights look and an honest Instructor will re-evaluate his instructional currency.

If you ask can an experienced pilot “mentor” a pre solo pilot…. I say mentor away…..Just make sure your information is not dated and you are not teaching “bad” habits to give negative training.

 

[nosehair]

Psst,..JAFI, look again, this is the airplane owner giving instruction to his own grandson.

 

[Hamburger]

The licensed CFI is the only one who can sign a logbook and approve someone for a checkride.

If I, a licensed pilot without a CFI, teach my son everything about how to fly an airplane, all he will need to do to make the minimum dual requirements with an Acutal CFI and demonstrate to an Actual CFI that he is prepared for the test.

 

[JAFI]

Psst,..JAFI, look again, this is the airplane owner giving instruction to his own grandson.

Short term memory is the first thing to go..... and I can't remember what the second thing is......... And I do rant on.

I applaud a grandfather who wants to share with his grandson a love of aviation. In this case I would still rather he use the word mentor than teach. To mentor is to give advice, experience, and pass on what the Grandfather has learned. I still think (IMHO) the student needs to stay with in a course of study until completion. Let him learn "A" way taught by a good current instructor. After he is proficient a grandfather can gift his experience and knowledge. Or better yet be near to discuss questions when the grandson is away from the instructor studying. Or go to ground school with the grandson and take the class together. I always learn something I never knew sitting in on a class.
I have had grandfathers come up to me and proudly explain they want to "get back into teaching after XX number of years away" to teach a grandson/daughter. I try to explain how much has changed after XX number of years and recommend the grandfather go back to (maybe CFI) ground school and get current with the many changes. The last thing a student needs is to have a conflict between a Grandfather and an Instructor. The CFI and Grandpa need to reinforce (and agree on) the information the student learns. It can be a force multiplier or a conflict. It can put the student in the middle and make the learning experience less desirable.
I think all will agree we want the best for the student, all parties need to agree on what that is (and who is the primary Instructor).

 

[Tired Soul]

I think it's OK because there is no rule against

JC that has to be the worst reason ever.
That's exactly why 91.13 is not specified.
There's no rule against it so I'm going to do it and later they'll nail your behind to the wall.

Does his insurance company approve the PIC sitting right seat? Some don't.
How old is grandpa ?
Is he from the "hey y'all watch this" generation?

As an answer to your question; no he can't teach.
In order to teach he needs to be a teacher which is no longer.
He can mentor yes, absolutely.

I completely agree with JAFI on this one.

If I, a licensed pilot without a CFI, teach my son everything about how to fly an airplane, all he will need to do to make the minimum dual requirements with an Acutal CFI and demonstrate to an Actual CFI that he is prepared for the test.

Uh..NO.
The applicant needs to meet all the requirements set forth in 61.109
There is nothing to gain.
It specifies:

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least--

20+10=30 but that doesn't mean that the remaining 10 hours can be done by Billie Joe Bob's grandfather.
What's next a V-tail Bonanza?

 

[brokeflyer]

If a person has an expired CFI certificate can that person give flight instruction to a pre-solo student, realizing that it won't count toward any of the flight time requirements? This would be in the owner's airplane with the owner giving instruction to his grandson.

I think it's OK because there is no rule against.

Yes he can teach, but the student cant log ANY of the time. Say again, the student cant put ANY of the time in his logbook.....at all.

 

[Flying Ninja]

14 CFR 61.3(d)(2)

 

[CA1900]

Let him learn "A" way taught by a good current instructor. After he is proficient a grandfather can gift his experience and knowledge...

I couldn't agree more. Nothing will hinder a student's progress like being pulled in two different directions. He may be learning a valid, "right" way to do something from both parties, but for now, he needs to learn the way that the CFI signing the paperwork wants him to learn. It's a firehose as it is. Once he has passed the practical test, that's when I'd recommend he start building on that knowledge with his grandfather.


The hardest student I ever had was a woman who wanted her working-on-his-CFI husband to do all the "ground stuff," and only wanted to pay me for the bare minimum time in the air to "make it legal." Very, very frustrating for me and for her. Her husband would explain something -- often incorrectly -- and I'd have to re-explain it in the cockpit with the engine screaming (and burning money) because she wouldn't do any ground instruction with me before the flight.

She never soloed with me, and looking at FAA database, never got past the student pilot certificate she got 12 years ago.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Yes he can teach, but the student cant log ANY of the time. Say again, the student cant put ANY of the time in his logbook.....at all.

You say the student can not put any of that time in a log book. I assume that means that something bad would happen if he did. Is that breaking a regulation of some kind, and if so do you have a reference for that.

It seems to me that a logbook is sort of like a diary, you can write what you want as long as that time is not being used as a fraud to qualify for certificate by entering that time on an 8710 airman application.

I know a person who was a private pilot and when he went for a trip on an airliner he logged that time as flight time and PIC (Passenger in Cabin) time. He never counted any of that time when he applied for his Instrument rating. So was it wrong for him to long that airline time? Was he breaking a rule of some kind?

 

[LITCHAT7]

Omg!!

 

[JAFI]

... Is that breaking a regulation of some kind, and if so do you have a reference for that.

It seems to me that a logbook is sort of like a diary, you can write what you want as long as that time is not being used as a fraud to qualify for certificate by entering that time on an 8710 airman application.

Yes and no, IMHO the devil is in the details.

If (in this case) a student pilot makes an entry into their logbook (took a flight with Grandpa for over an hour) and does not count total time, PIC/solo time, or Instruction recieved - IMHO he is not recording flight time but a personal note. The log book is a legal record for recording flight time for currency and time for a certificate or rating (CFR 61.51).

If he uses that time for total time, that IMHO can be used for both times above.

61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.

(a) No person may make or cause to be made:

(1) Any fraudulent or intentionally false statement on any application for a certificate, rating, authorization, or duplicate thereof, issued under this part;

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;


And one more point. When a student pilot does any thing the FSDO questions, the FAA will investigate the CFI to determine their competency to be a CFI. Most CFI do not get paid enough to keep a lawyer on retainer and IMHO, it is best to travel inside the boundries of the regulation than to live on the edge and maybe cross over.......

 

[brokeflyer]

You say the student can not put any of that time in a log book. I assume that means that something bad would happen if he did. Is that breaking a regulation of some kind, and if so do you have a reference for that.

It seems to me that a logbook is sort of like a diary, you can write what you want as long as that time is not being used as a fraud to qualify for certificate by entering that time on an 8710 airman application.

I know a person who was a private pilot and when he went for a trip on an airliner he logged that time as flight time and PIC (Passenger in Cabin) time. He never counted any of that time when he applied for his Instrument rating. So was it wrong for him to long that airline time? Was he breaking a rule of some kind?

the student cant log solo or dual time.....that make it easier to understand?

those two can go flying around all day, but the student cant log any of the time. none of it. And yes it's breaking a regulation. Gramps isnt a CFI so he cant allow the student to manipulate the controls.....

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Gramps isnt a CFI so he cant allow the student to manipulate the controls.....

Do you have reference for that?

 

[brokeflyer]

yes...its in the FAR's

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

yes...its in the FAR's

Sorry, but I don't think so. Please post a reference if you have one.

 

[JAFI]

A minor point: The "FAR's" were a part of the Act of 1958 that established the FAA. In 1998 the Act of 1958 was codified into the US Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's). Here is a link to help you find that CFR reference:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

A minor point: The "FAR's" were a part of the Act of 1958 that established the FAA. In 1998 the Act of 1958 was codified into the US Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's). Here is a link to help you find that CFR reference:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

Yes, of course that's true. Most everybody know that but still the 14CFR's sounds so awkward. To me and many others it's FAR's forever even though it is not technically correct.

 

[JAFI]

Yes, of course that's true. Most everybody know that but still the 14CFR's sounds so awkward. To me and many others it's FAR's forever even though it is not technically correct.

My apologies. I badly was pointing this out to brokeflyer. It is a minor point - - but to search the "FAR's" I included the address under CFR's.

 

[brokeflyer]

you go look it up, im not gonna do your homework for you.

Ill save you the time though, the student cant log the time because he isnt PIC and there is no CFI on board to give dual.

The original question was can an expired CFI teach this pre-solo student? yes, but he can't log any of it.

I can't make it any more clear than that.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

you go look it up, im not gonna do your homework for you.

Ill save you the time though, the student cant log the time because he isnt PIC and there is no CFI on board to give dual.

The original question was can an expired CFI teach this pre-solo student? yes, but he can't log any of it.

I can't make it any more clear than that.

OK I hear what you say. But answer me this, can a passenger in an airplane log that time as PIC (Passenger In the Cabin) time? I think you would say yes as long as he/she isn't going to use that time as flight time to qualify for an FAA certificate or rating or to show recent flight experience. I've seen many passengers log such time when they fly as passengers on airline flights and they usually ask the captain to sign their logbooks too. I've seen these logbooks passed up to the cockpit for the captain to sign while the FAA was even on the jump seat. We all (including the FAA) think it's rather interesting that these passengers keep these harmless records. So if that's true and OK, then wouldn't it be just as true for anybody to harmlessly record their time in the right or left seat flying with Dad or Grandpa or whoever?

 

[brokeflyer]

you asked if an expired cfi can teach a pre solo student. yes, anyone can teach someone how to fly. But it's a waste of time to do it without a CFI.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

you asked if an expired cfi can teach a pre solo student. yes, anyone can teach someone how to fly. But it's a waste of time to do it without a CFI.

I see you have come around quite a bit in your thoughts on this. Congratulations! However; let me assure you that such instructional flying by a senior pilot would not be a waste of anyone's time. Most young instructors just don't understand fundamentals of flight, in particular just what the rudder is for and how to properly takeoff or land in a crosswind, among many other important things. Those are the things that are taught much better by an experienced, yet expired, CFI than a "green" youngster CFI with 500 hours who hasn't really figured it out yet.

I ran into a young CFI one time who insisted that he knew it all because he had 1,000 TT. I explained to him just what 1,000 hours TT means. Are you ready, remember this: 1,000 hours means that that person is interested in aviation. When you have 1,000 hours in jets, you are interested in jets, and so on. Remember this quote as it will serve you and othes well in discussions with young people because one day they'll find to to be so true. 1,000 hours TT is really very little and can be obtained from scratch in as little as one year and certainly in two years.

While I realize that you and many others have enough flight time to show that they are well past the "interested" stage, I'm surprised at the resistance to an expired CFI teaching, as if only current CFI's know anything. Sorry, but most often it is just the opposite. No, its not the flight time that will count for anything to the FAA, but in learning, it can many times be logged in a special place as the best instruction ever received.

 

[JAFI]

I had "words" with a Private pilot with 100 hours who said he knew more than I did when I had over 20 years as a working pilot. We all have stories of the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly... Sorry Clint for using the title.

Perhaps the Grandfather could help pick the CFI with more than 500 hours and knows what a rudder is. You know they are out there, good Instructors who teach because they love to and are good at it. Grandpa can use his knowledge to pick the wheat from the chaff.

My suggestion is you become part of the learning program to enhance what the "legal" CFI is teaching. Remember that the student will absorb at his schedule and be careful to not overload and make the learning process less than enjoyable. Become as current with the private pilot ground school manual to enhance that level of ability and wait until the student becomes proficent before moving on to more advanced areas.

IMHO the sylabus is set up pretty good with many years of proof it works. I think your grandchild will enjoy your mentoring.

 

[brokeflyer]

I see you have come around quite a bit in your thoughts on this. Congratulations! However; let me assure you that such instructional flying by a senior pilot would not be a waste of anyone's time. Most young instructors just don't understand fundamentals of flight, in particular just what the rudder is for and how to properly takeoff or land in a crosswind, among many other important things. Those are the things that are taught much better by an experienced, yet expired, CFI than a "green" youngster CFI with 500 hours who hasn't really figured it out yet.

I ran into a young CFI one time who insisted that he knew it all because he had 1,000 TT. I explained to him just what 1,000 hours TT means. Are you ready, remember this: 1,000 hours means that that person is interested in aviation. When you have 1,000 hours in jets, you are interested in jets, and so on. Remember this quote as it will serve you and othes well in discussions with young people because one day they'll find to to be so true. 1,000 hours TT is really very little and can be obtained from scratch in as little as one year and certainly in two years.

While I realize that you and many others have enough flight time to show that they are well past the "interested" stage, I'm surprised at the resistance to an expired CFI teaching, as if only current CFI's know anything. Sorry, but most often it is just the opposite. No, its not the flight time that will count for anything to the FAA, but in learning, it can many times be logged in a special place as the best instruction ever received.

I haven't come around at all....i answered your question several times over. Those two can fly around all day long, as long as you understand the student can't log any of the time.

As far as flying with the older, experienced CFI? it's not going to make the student finish any faster. The young stupid CFI is still going to need to see all the requirements are met and that he "taught" everything.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The student can't log any of the time.

Wait, I thought it is agreed that a passenger on an airliner can log that time in a PIC (Passenger in the Cabin) column, right? So therefore anybody can log anything as long as it's not used to count for certification or recent flight experience.

I've asked you to reference some reg that says, "No person may log any type of flight time unless that person is _______" But sorry, you can not because no such reg exists. So just as the passenger can record his or her airline flights, so can anyone record their flights whether with a CFI or not. Look at F/E's, they log their flight time, F/A's log their flight time, DPE's log their flight time, REO's log their flight time, and guess what, none of this counts at all for certification for a private pilot, commercial pilot or instrument rating. So just as none of these count but are logable, so is a student flying with any pilot.

 

[Flying Ninja]

This has got to be the most pointless discussion ever. I can't believe people have entertained this dumb thread as much as they already have.

Bottom Line: Log what ever you want. Use a Mickey Mouse note pad from Disney for all anyone care. If you will eventually apply for a job with all this crap time logged, I really want you to video and post the interview on You Tube for all of us to have the laugh of the century. What a joke.

 

[brokeflyer]

Wait, I thought it is agreed that a passenger on an airliner can log that time in a PIC (Passenger in the Cabin) column, right? So therefore anybody can log anything as long as it's not used to count for certification or recent flight experience.

I've asked you to reference some reg that says, "No person may log any type of flight time unless that person is _______" But sorry, you can not because no such reg exists. So just as the passenger can record his or her airline flights, so can anyone record their flights whether with a CFI or not. Look at F/E's, they log their flight time, F/A's log their flight time, DPE's log their flight time, REO's log their flight time, and guess what, none of this counts at all for certification for a private pilot, commercial pilot or instrument rating. So just as none of these count but are logable, so is a student flying with any pilot.

go away already

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Keep it simple, pops.

Legal time in one book and family-bonding time in another.