expectations for SLI, Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan

[Yodafly]

What are your expectations for a combined list and where do you fit relatively in your company. Top 25%, 25%-50%, 50%-75%, 75%-Furlough or New Hire.

 

[RJLoser]

What are your expectations for a combined list and where do you fit relatively in your company. Top 25%, 25%-50%, 50%-75%, 75%-Furlough or New Hire.

It's gonna be bad for everyone.

 

[the palm]

Windfall for Peaknuckle. Mesaba and Colgan....not so much

 

[higney85]

I was told by the DL guy that was on the merger committee one line that is weirdly true.... "If everyone is upset, it was done right". Anything at this point is pure speculation. Until we get a TA on a JCBA the merger committees aren't even convening. I don't see a windfall or staplejob in any of the 3 groups' future.

 

[Kaman]

If I don't get in the left-seat (again!) before SLI...Might be awhile...And, I have been trying to make it clear to anyone that will listen...THIS IS NOT a merger for GROWTH...This is a CONSOLIDATION!!!! 3000 pilots today...5-7 years from now...1500!!! I HOPE I AM WRONG....However, I don't think that I am and this trend of consolidation is going to continue and it is inevitable.

 

[higney85]

If I don't get in the left-seat (again!) before SLI...Might be awhile...And, I have been trying to make it clear to anyone that will listen...THIS IS NOT a merger for GROWTH...This is a CONSOLIDATION!!!! 3000 pilots today...5-7 years from now...1500!!! I HOPE I AM WRONG....However, I don't think that I am and this trend of consolidation is going to continue and it is inevitable.

1500? Have you spent any time looking at the CPA agreements? Pinnacle is already run as thin as possible with old work rules, they can't run leaner than now. 9E alone is almost 1200 pilots. Add Colgan and their CPA, and Mesaba's agreement (through PNCL for the acquisition) and 1500 pilots isn't possible unless performance is so bad that contracts get cancelled or mainline (DL and CO/UAL) go under. Not saying it's not possible, being in aviation never say never, but it is highly unlikely for the total group to get halved.

 

[Kaman]

Honestly, I haven't had a chance to read that document. My statement is based upon what I believe is the strategic business plan of PNCL Corp. based on the statements and memorandums I've read in the past few months.
Continuing consolidation is inevitable in the airline industry, and while Doug Parker at US isn't everyone's favorite guy. He was correct 5 years ago when he predicted a trend toward consolidation, less capacity and less frequency. Fuel costs are not going to come down and will again begin to climb into the near $100/barrel of crude again in the near future. Bottom-line is that to make money you have to reduce costs, and maximize yields per seat my flown. Airline 101 some would say. I am not an expert or business school graduate, but I have been around long enough to see the handwriting on the wall.
PNCL Corp. could very well be an airline of 75 Q-400s and 75 CRJ-900s by the end of this decade if not much sooner. The B+s are going and Colgan is abandoning traditional routes because they just don't generate the revenue margins to justify their continued operation.
NOBODY wants to see airplanes leave the property, but if this company is going be positioned to survive and thrive in the new world order that we are waking up to. Then I wouldn't be shocked to see my prediction come to light. The good news is that in 2012, the age 65 rule kicks in and we will be seeing some real hiring going on at the majors.
Interesting times in which we live...

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[callowayhd]

I would agree that the majority of the new pinnacles crj200 fleet and saab fleet will be gone in a few years. 76 seat regional aircraft is the new thing and noone likes the 50 seats.

Do not feel too comfortable with the crj200 contract with delta, you now have a JFK base and will NOT meet the performance numbers required per the contract.

Good luck but the reality is majors want to recapture flying that is theirs, the crj200 is no longer profitable with high oil prices. Consolidation usually means shrinkage

 

[SEVEN]

Windfall for Peaknuckle. Mesaba and Colgan....not so much

Keep dream'n.

 

[higney85]

If the combined PNCL fleet ends up to be just Q-400's and -900's and mainline "takes the flying back" I don't see this as a bad thing. Why? The pilots who choose NOT to go to a major (for whatever valid reasons) will still be flying. The recaptured flying will be done at mainline; requiring more staffing at the majors, higher career earnings, and plenty of movement from the regionals to the majors. Can it happen overnight? No. Can it happen over time in a fashion that would not be a disruption to career progression? Yes. The big players in this arena will be the new scope language of the UAL/CO JCBA, the next contract cycle for DL, next cycle for AA, and Usair/AW (if they ever get their train on the right tracks). We all get to watch this unfold going forward.

Thinking only negative will not allow any positives to occur.

 

[Kaman]

If the combined PNCL fleet ends up to be just Q-400's and -900's and mainline "takes the flying back" I don't see this as a bad thing. Why? The pilots who choose NOT to go to a major (for whatever valid reasons) will still be flying. The recaptured flying will be done at mainline; requiring more staffing at the majors, higher career earnings, and plenty of movement from the regionals to the majors. Can it happen overnight? No. Can it happen over time in a fashion that would not be a disruption to career progression? Yes. The big players in this arena will be the new scope language of the UAL/CO JCBA, the next contract cycle for DL, next cycle for AA, and Usair/AW (if they ever get their train on the right tracks). We all get to watch this unfold going forward.

Thinking only negative will not allow any positives to occur.

Well said, and I agree with you. Unfortunately, there is always some kind of human "fallout" during one of these rounds of mergers, consolidations, optimizations, rationalizations...whatever management tries to spin it as doesn't matter. I think that what is going on is necessary, and I have never understood why the airlines are always so slow to react to the market forces in the industry. Granted, caution must be used in making changes too quickly, but fuel costs aren't going to go anywhere, except up. Personnel costs are still secondary to fuel...Makes complete sense to have less airframes flying with more seats burning less fuel. Not good for the wallets of the flying public and reduces opportunities for pilots to advance and enter flying as a profession.

 

[flyn96]

Windfall for Peaknuckle. Mesaba and Colgan....not so much

Last I checked Mesaba and Colgan combined have more votes than Pinnacle so you will NOT see a "Windfall" and not to mention Mesaba guys are pulling the reigns in negotiations. Good luck with that.

 

[DoinTime]

Last I checked Mesaba and Colgan combined have more votes than Pinnacle so you will NOT see a "Windfall"

Nobody gets to vote on seniority integration.

Not to mention Mesaba guys are pulling the reigns in negotiations. Good luck with that.

If the end result of joint negotiations looks like Mesaba's contract the deal is already failed. Mesaba contract will not pass at PCL. To many concessions.

 

[higney85]

Last I checked Mesaba and Colgan combined have more votes than Pinnacle so you will NOT see a "Windfall" and not to mention Mesaba guys are pulling the reigns in negotiations. Good luck with that.

Nope. You obviously are not absorbing the facts as they are presented. In terms of the sli, that's not an issue anyone votes on so it doesn't allow for any group to control the outcome to their advantage. If the 3 respective merger committees cannot come up with a method an arbitrator gets the reigns in the sli arena. In terms of negotiations for a JCBA there is a Joint negotiating committee comprised of all groups. Once a TA is reached all 3 MEC's must separately pass the TA for the pilot group to be given a choice by vote. A single (any) MEC can vote the TA down and halt the process for all, but in either a JCBA or Sli it is impossible for any of the groups to individually or even 2 on 1 the overall group. It's all or nothing for all involved. If you understand or heard it otherwise you need to check your source. Nobody holds the "reigns" in any way, shape, or form beyond the JMEC as a whole.

 

[higney85]

If the end result of joint negotiations looks like Mesaba's contract the deal is already failed. Mesaba contract will not pass at PCL. To many concessions.

I would (personally) agree with that statement and sentiment.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Originally Posted by DoinTime
If the end result of joint negotiations looks like Mesaba's contract the deal is already failed. Mesaba contract will not pass at PCL. To many concessions.


I think it's great that PCL wouldn't have passed our Concessionary contract. Course we did have a bankruptcy court gun to our head, but we are a pilot group that just rolls over and takes it....

I hope your contract is better than ours, I'd vote for it. But right now a PCL Captain at my seniority is about 5 to 6 bucks less than me. Personally I don't think Uncle Phil will raise you guys to our level but I honestly hope you pass it.

But watch the "concessionary" language. We were in bankruptcy. If the PCL group gets a contract for less than ours then what are we going to call you?

Good Luck to all of us.

 

[Simon Says]

Nope. You obviously are not absorbing the facts as they are presented. In terms of the sli, that's not an issue anyone votes on so it doesn't allow for any group to control the outcome to their advantage. If the 3 respective merger committees cannot come up with a method an arbitrator gets the reigns in the sli arena. In terms of negotiations for a JCBA there is a Joint negotiating committee comprised of all groups. Once a TA is reached all 3 MEC's must separately pass the TA for the pilot group to be given a choice by vote. A single (any) MEC can vote the TA down and halt the process for all, but in either a JCBA or Sli it is impossible for any of the groups to individually or even 2 on 1 the overall group. It's all or nothing for all involved. If you understand or heard it otherwise you need to check your source. Nobody holds the "reigns" in any way, shape, or form beyond the JMEC as a whole.

This is all true.

 

[Simon Says]

Nobody gets to vote on seniority integration.




If the end result of joint negotiations looks like Mesaba's contract the deal is already failed. Mesaba contract will not pass at PCL. To many concessions.

True on the seniority intergration.

As for the contract I first want to say I hope you are correct about PCL not passing Mesaba's contract. If we had our contract and your health care for a term of 4-5 years I would probably vote for it. I have worked under this contract and bid middle of the pack at Mesaba. It is not that bad, except for FO pay. But the work rules, retirement, and the scheduling is not bad at all.

In the end we have all got to be on the same team. Lets not have our mis-understandings now be a divider later.

 

[Mr Wu]

Last I checked Mesaba and Colgan combined have more votes than Pinnacle so you will NOT see a "Windfall" and not to mention Mesaba guys are pulling the reigns in negotiations. Good luck with that.

It's reins, you dumb bastard.

 

[Kaman]

It's reins, you dumb bastard.

You get into ROA lately?

 

[Raskal]

Hopefully both of these crap contracts will die a horrible death, then maybe we can stop listening to "management won't talk" and "bankruptcy made me do it" excuses. Let's get something we have only ourselves to credit or to blame.

 

[Mr Wu]

You get into ROA lately?

Haven't been anywhere lately. It's our slow season. 11 hours last month, 7 this month. At least it's all day off flying.

 

[higney85]

It's reins, you dumb bastard.

I was wondering if anyone else picked up the physical "reins" vs. intent of "reigns" in a controlling methodology.

I guess it's what gives FI its reputation.

 

[Yodafly]

What is the opinion on Q400 Rates. Should they be the same as the crj 200 or the crj 900 or something in the middle.

As most of us agree our future depends on the Q400 and CRJ 900. Would acepting 50 seat RJ pay for the 74 seat Q400 be considered a bad decision for the future and a deal breaker on the joint contract.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Honestly, I haven't had a chance to read that document. My statement is based upon what I believe is the strategic business plan of PNCL Corp. based on the statements and memorandums I've read in the past few months.
Continuing consolidation is inevitable in the airline industry, and while Doug Parker at US isn't everyone's favorite guy. He was correct 5 years ago when he predicted a trend toward consolidation, less capacity and less frequency. Fuel costs are not going to come down and will again begin to climb into the near $100/barrel of crude again in the near future. Bottom-line is that to make money you have to reduce costs, and maximize yields per seat my flown. Airline 101 some would say. I am not an expert or business school graduate, but I have been around long enough to see the handwriting on the wall.
PNCL Corp. could very well be an airline of 75 Q-400s and 75 CRJ-900s by the end of this decade if not much sooner. The B+s are going and Colgan is abandoning traditional routes because they just don't generate the revenue margins to justify their continued operation.
NOBODY wants to see airplanes leave the property, but if this company is going be positioned to survive and thrive in the new world order that we are waking up to. Then I wouldn't be shocked to see my prediction come to light. The good news is that in 2012, the age 65 rule kicks in and we will be seeing some real hiring going on at the majors.
Interesting times in which we live...

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

What if the majors, with all the consolidation, start retiring airplanes to coincide with pilot retirements? What if they just shrink and continue the blasphemy of more bigger RJs? The only good news is news that has already happened. Future news is called hope.

 

[CoATP]

Future news is called hope.

Or perhaps DESPAIR to those "half-empty" type of folk.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What are your expectations for a combined list and where do you fit relatively in your company. Top 25%, 25%-50%, 50%-75%, 75%-Furlough or New Hire.

Including the furloughs with names still on the list I am at about 45% and fully expect that this merger will renew my resolve to keep my resume up to date and in the mailboxes of Delta and Southwest.

 

[flyn96]

If the end result of joint negotiations looks like Mesaba's contract the deal is already failed. Mesaba contract will not pass at PCL. To many concessions.[/QUOTE]

Tell me how the Mesaba contract would be concessionary??

 

[DoinTime]

Tell me how the Mesaba contract would be concessionary??

I'll start with four...

- FO pay rates (XJ rates well behind PCL TA'd rates)
- Health insurance (up to 15% salary equivalent for FO's with families)
- Dead Head pay (XJ=50% PCL=75%)
- Cancelation pay (XJ=trip guarantee PCL=leg guarantee)

 

[flyn96]

I'll start with four...

- FO pay rates (XJ rates well behind PCL TA'd rates)

Don't care about T'ad rates because is was only a TA, we are moving forward with a JCBA now and our current CH11 rates are above current 9e rates and those expire with a large raise Dec 1st. Also our CRJ-200 Capt rates have a large gap over yours and again it will get even larger Dec 1st. Again the highest rates of either should be the "starting point" going forward.

- Health insurance (up to 15% salary equivalent for FO's with families)

Fo's with families will always pay a higher %"salary equivalent" because of their lower pay and the higher premium. You are not going to get "cheaper" insurance because you are a FO.

Do you guys have United Healthcare as your insurance? Mesaba does and frankly unless you live in MSP the coverage sucks. It would be nice if we could get Blue Cross like the rest of the world.

- Dead Head pay (XJ=50% PCL=75%)

Current book yes, we however have a 4 hr min days that off sets a lot of that and goes beyond just days you DH. For example, picking up open time, traveling to and from training. Trip integration due to know absences. Junior manning and fly into a day off.

- Cancelation pay (XJ=trip guarantee PCL=leg guarantee)

Do you have leg guarantee right now or was that TA'd?


I see there are a lot of issues that affect you as an FO but some issues are small fries like DH pay. I'd rather see the JNC workout good work rules with little to no loopholes especially for reserves and up the min days off to at least 13.