expectations for SLI, Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan

[Raskal]

Hopefully both of these crap contracts will die a horrible death, then maybe we can stop listening to "management won't talk" and "bankruptcy made me do it" excuses. Let's get something we have only ourselves to credit or to blame.

 

[Mr Wu]

You get into ROA lately?

Haven't been anywhere lately. It's our slow season. 11 hours last month, 7 this month. At least it's all day off flying.

 

[higney85]

It's reins, you dumb bastard.

I was wondering if anyone else picked up the physical "reins" vs. intent of "reigns" in a controlling methodology.

I guess it's what gives FI its reputation.

 

[Yodafly]

What is the opinion on Q400 Rates. Should they be the same as the crj 200 or the crj 900 or something in the middle.

As most of us agree our future depends on the Q400 and CRJ 900. Would acepting 50 seat RJ pay for the 74 seat Q400 be considered a bad decision for the future and a deal breaker on the joint contract.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Honestly, I haven't had a chance to read that document. My statement is based upon what I believe is the strategic business plan of PNCL Corp. based on the statements and memorandums I've read in the past few months.
Continuing consolidation is inevitable in the airline industry, and while Doug Parker at US isn't everyone's favorite guy. He was correct 5 years ago when he predicted a trend toward consolidation, less capacity and less frequency. Fuel costs are not going to come down and will again begin to climb into the near $100/barrel of crude again in the near future. Bottom-line is that to make money you have to reduce costs, and maximize yields per seat my flown. Airline 101 some would say. I am not an expert or business school graduate, but I have been around long enough to see the handwriting on the wall.
PNCL Corp. could very well be an airline of 75 Q-400s and 75 CRJ-900s by the end of this decade if not much sooner. The B+s are going and Colgan is abandoning traditional routes because they just don't generate the revenue margins to justify their continued operation.
NOBODY wants to see airplanes leave the property, but if this company is going be positioned to survive and thrive in the new world order that we are waking up to. Then I wouldn't be shocked to see my prediction come to light. The good news is that in 2012, the age 65 rule kicks in and we will be seeing some real hiring going on at the majors.
Interesting times in which we live...

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

What if the majors, with all the consolidation, start retiring airplanes to coincide with pilot retirements? What if they just shrink and continue the blasphemy of more bigger RJs? The only good news is news that has already happened. Future news is called hope.

 

[CoATP]

Future news is called hope.

Or perhaps DESPAIR to those "half-empty" type of folk.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What are your expectations for a combined list and where do you fit relatively in your company. Top 25%, 25%-50%, 50%-75%, 75%-Furlough or New Hire.

Including the furloughs with names still on the list I am at about 45% and fully expect that this merger will renew my resolve to keep my resume up to date and in the mailboxes of Delta and Southwest.

 

[flyn96]

If the end result of joint negotiations looks like Mesaba's contract the deal is already failed. Mesaba contract will not pass at PCL. To many concessions.[/QUOTE]

Tell me how the Mesaba contract would be concessionary??

 

[DoinTime]

Tell me how the Mesaba contract would be concessionary??

I'll start with four...

- FO pay rates (XJ rates well behind PCL TA'd rates)
- Health insurance (up to 15% salary equivalent for FO's with families)
- Dead Head pay (XJ=50% PCL=75%)
- Cancelation pay (XJ=trip guarantee PCL=leg guarantee)

 

[flyn96]

I'll start with four...

- FO pay rates (XJ rates well behind PCL TA'd rates)

Don't care about T'ad rates because is was only a TA, we are moving forward with a JCBA now and our current CH11 rates are above current 9e rates and those expire with a large raise Dec 1st. Also our CRJ-200 Capt rates have a large gap over yours and again it will get even larger Dec 1st. Again the highest rates of either should be the "starting point" going forward.

- Health insurance (up to 15% salary equivalent for FO's with families)

Fo's with families will always pay a higher %"salary equivalent" because of their lower pay and the higher premium. You are not going to get "cheaper" insurance because you are a FO.

Do you guys have United Healthcare as your insurance? Mesaba does and frankly unless you live in MSP the coverage sucks. It would be nice if we could get Blue Cross like the rest of the world.

- Dead Head pay (XJ=50% PCL=75%)

Current book yes, we however have a 4 hr min days that off sets a lot of that and goes beyond just days you DH. For example, picking up open time, traveling to and from training. Trip integration due to know absences. Junior manning and fly into a day off.

- Cancelation pay (XJ=trip guarantee PCL=leg guarantee)

Do you have leg guarantee right now or was that TA'd?


I see there are a lot of issues that affect you as an FO but some issues are small fries like DH pay. I'd rather see the JNC workout good work rules with little to no loopholes especially for reserves and up the min days off to at least 13.

 

[CptMurf]

I'll start with four...

- FO pay rates (XJ rates well behind PCL TA'd rates)
- Health insurance (up to 15% salary equivalent for FO's with families)
- Dead Head pay (XJ=50% PCL=75%)
- Cancelation pay (XJ=trip guarantee PCL=leg guarantee)

So, let me get this straight... You're comparing a contract that you don't have, against XJs current contract, and without considering it's guaranteed SnapBack on Dec 1.

XJs contract is far from perfect, but it's in a completely different league than the POS contract you have now. There is nothing legally binding about the TA. At this point, it might as well never existed.

 

[higney85]

So, let me get this straight... You're comparing a contract that you don't have, against XJs current contract, and without considering it's guaranteed SnapBack on Dec 1.

XJs contract is far from perfect, but it's in a completely different league than the POS contract you have now. There is nothing legally binding about the TA. At this point, it might as well never existed.

You obviously don't know both contracts like you need to in making comparisons. I would advise you to speak with your reps because there is alot of good stuff in both deals. Neither side was used as a "base", as rumored by some.

 

[CptMurf]

Actually, know ours extremely well. I know your current contract, but since the TA was not made public, I only know the terms discussed on internet forums. It seems the TA was a big leap for you guys, but it was not ratified, and therefore not binding. I am glad that we are using the best pieces of both in the integration. But the point was made, and I challenge that current XJ contract is concessionary to a 9E guy. The person was comparing your TA, not current contract, and was not considering our SnapBack provisions.

I believe you should challenge you fellow workers to talk to their reps and understand both contracts, before posting on FI as well. Seems a lot are misguided at times.

 

[higney85]

Actually, know ours extremely well. I know your current contract, but since the TA was not made public, I only know the terms discussed on internet forums. It seems the TA was a big leap for you guys, but it was not ratified, and therefore not binding. I am glad that we are using the best pieces of both in the integration. But the point was made, and I challenge that current XJ contract is concessionary to a 9E guy. The person was comparing your TA, not current contract, and was not considering our SnapBack provisions.

I believe you should challenge you fellow workers to talk to their reps and understand both contracts, before posting on FI as well. Seems a lot are misguided at times.

Yea... I guess I should call my... Wait..

 

[CptMurf]

Yea... I guess I should call my... Wait..

I've been here a little longer than Nov 06, and always involved, In fact I can remember the comments from your crewmembers on the bus in MEM in June '00. "The CRJ rates aren't great, but we don't have any anyway."

Don't get upset with me because I called your current contract a POS. It is. We all know it. The TA seemed like it was a HUGE leap in the right direction, but obviously it didn't meet all your MEC members needs.

I am actually hopefully this integration will be a move forward to ALL of us. I am however getting quite tired of 9E crewmembers telling me "We haven't seen anything yet", and "There's talk of using the LOA to integrate at 4-1", and "XJ guys should just be happy they get to keep their jobs". These are not just comments on FI. In fact I had a OH crew tell me the 9E pilot was spewing these types of comments on the jumpseat recently. Most discussions I've had with XJ folks seem to be hopeful of the contract and SLI, most discussions I've had with 9E folk seem to turn into a phallus measuring contest.

Maybe you can't talk to yourself, but take the time to tell your members to chill out a bit.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

You know 9E guys, you can believe the purchase of Mesaba is a windfall for struggling FO's to finally upgrade. Believe it...Really. But irrespective of the pay, seniority, work rules, whatever. I have no worry's about losing my MSP Captain spot to a 9E FO.

While I don't like Uncle Phil, he isn't stupid. The training costs alone will eliminate the chance of that. Nor should Colgan guys be worried about losing there Q400 seats to a senior XJ Captain who pines for the old Dash Days (got a lot of them).

We really need to make sure that the company is serious about getting an agreement by the 15th. I am highly suspicious because I think having the three pilot groups fighting benefits management.

Lets get together keep our current positions and base. I don't know the 9E agreement but just APC rates are showing same seniority 9E Captain about $5/hr less than me. I think if XJ pilots can at least keep current book (as of Dec 1), improve the work rules that I've heard the 9E guys have, then we can have an agreement. It won't be easy.

But if the term of contract is short, then I think the majority of XJ would go for it. Yeah, I'd like the same percentage increase as what Colgan and Pinnacle is going to get but I am just not sure that's possible. But there are other benefits besides money and if those things are addressed, I may be supportive.

Stop the staple talk and the lucky to have jobs stuff. We were not a distressed sale, we are stronger in just about every sense (safety, training, etc...) lets all get on board and be stronger together. That should make Uncle Phil nervous.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

You know 9E guys, you can believe the purchase of Mesaba is a windfall for struggling FO's to finally upgrade. Believe it...Really. But irrespective of the pay, seniority, work rules, whatever. I have no worry's about losing my MSP Captain spot to a 9E FO.

While I don't like Uncle Phil, he isn't stupid. The training costs alone will eliminate the chance of that. Nor should Colgan guys be worried about losing there Q400 seats to a senior XJ Captain who pines for the old Dash Days (got a lot of them).

We really need to make sure that the company is serious about getting an agreement by the 15th. I am highly suspicious because I think having the three pilot groups fighting benefits management.

Lets get together keep our current positions and base. I don't know the 9E agreement but just APC rates are showing same seniority 9E Captain about $5/hr less than me. I think if XJ pilots can at least keep current book (as of Dec 1), improve the work rules that I've heard the 9E guys have, then we can have an agreement. It won't be easy.

But if the term of contract is short, then I think the majority of XJ would go for it. Yeah, I'd like the same percentage increase as what Colgan and Pinnacle is going to get but I am just not sure that's possible. But there are other benefits besides money and if those things are addressed, I may be supportive.

Stop the staple talk and the lucky to have jobs stuff. We were not a distressed sale, we are stronger in just about every sense (safety, training, etc...) lets all get on board and be stronger together. That should make Uncle Phil nervous.

I have been told basically the negotiatiors are just taking our concessionary contract with a very few nuggets from Pinnacle's contract and just extending the duration, only looking and hoping for industry average. Not even wanting to get anything industry leading. Oh and it certainly sounded to me like we are going to be throwing our FO's under the bus for at least the 3rd time....
So far I am still wating for even a glimer of a reason not to vote no on this turd.

 

[higney85]

I have been told basically the negotiatiors are just taking our concessionary contract with a very few nuggets from Pinnacle's contract and just extending the duration, only looking and hoping for industry average. Not even wanting to get anything industry leading. Oh and it certainly sounded to me like we are going to be throwing our FO's under the bus for at least the 3rd time....
So far I am still wating for even a glimer of a reason not to vote no on this turd.

You aren't getting a good source then..

 

[contrail67]

1500? Have you spent any time looking at the CPA agreements? Pinnacle is already run as thin as possible with old work rules, they can't run leaner than now. 9E alone is almost 1200 pilots. Add Colgan and their CPA, and Mesaba's agreement (through PNCL for the acquisition) and 1500 pilots isn't possible unless performance is so bad that contracts get cancelled or mainline (DL and CO/UAL) go under. Not saying it's not possible, being in aviation never say never, but it is highly unlikely for the total group to get halved.

Any cuts in commercial aviation will be done at the regional level..SCOPE language at United will alone slice the regionals associated with UAL.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

You aren't getting a good source then..

Well then what is the truth? I don't call it a grand sucess that we get 75% deadhead pay and FO's go to current Pinnacle 900 FO pay. All other payscales just being extended from where the Mesaba Dec 1 scale is (no final snapback next year). Now if that's NOT what's being put into the TA then please enlighten me. I don't call just keeping what Mesaba has industry leading, I call it concessionary.