expectations for SLI, Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan

[CptMurf]

I'll start with four...

- FO pay rates (XJ rates well behind PCL TA'd rates)
- Health insurance (up to 15% salary equivalent for FO's with families)
- Dead Head pay (XJ=50% PCL=75%)
- Cancelation pay (XJ=trip guarantee PCL=leg guarantee)

So, let me get this straight... You're comparing a contract that you don't have, against XJs current contract, and without considering it's guaranteed SnapBack on Dec 1.

XJs contract is far from perfect, but it's in a completely different league than the POS contract you have now. There is nothing legally binding about the TA. At this point, it might as well never existed.

 

[higney85]

So, let me get this straight... You're comparing a contract that you don't have, against XJs current contract, and without considering it's guaranteed SnapBack on Dec 1.

XJs contract is far from perfect, but it's in a completely different league than the POS contract you have now. There is nothing legally binding about the TA. At this point, it might as well never existed.

You obviously don't know both contracts like you need to in making comparisons. I would advise you to speak with your reps because there is alot of good stuff in both deals. Neither side was used as a "base", as rumored by some.

 

[CptMurf]

Actually, know ours extremely well. I know your current contract, but since the TA was not made public, I only know the terms discussed on internet forums. It seems the TA was a big leap for you guys, but it was not ratified, and therefore not binding. I am glad that we are using the best pieces of both in the integration. But the point was made, and I challenge that current XJ contract is concessionary to a 9E guy. The person was comparing your TA, not current contract, and was not considering our SnapBack provisions.

I believe you should challenge you fellow workers to talk to their reps and understand both contracts, before posting on FI as well. Seems a lot are misguided at times.

 

[higney85]

Actually, know ours extremely well. I know your current contract, but since the TA was not made public, I only know the terms discussed on internet forums. It seems the TA was a big leap for you guys, but it was not ratified, and therefore not binding. I am glad that we are using the best pieces of both in the integration. But the point was made, and I challenge that current XJ contract is concessionary to a 9E guy. The person was comparing your TA, not current contract, and was not considering our SnapBack provisions.

I believe you should challenge you fellow workers to talk to their reps and understand both contracts, before posting on FI as well. Seems a lot are misguided at times.

Yea... I guess I should call my... Wait..

 

[CptMurf]

Yea... I guess I should call my... Wait..

I've been here a little longer than Nov 06, and always involved, In fact I can remember the comments from your crewmembers on the bus in MEM in June '00. "The CRJ rates aren't great, but we don't have any anyway."

Don't get upset with me because I called your current contract a POS. It is. We all know it. The TA seemed like it was a HUGE leap in the right direction, but obviously it didn't meet all your MEC members needs.

I am actually hopefully this integration will be a move forward to ALL of us. I am however getting quite tired of 9E crewmembers telling me "We haven't seen anything yet", and "There's talk of using the LOA to integrate at 4-1", and "XJ guys should just be happy they get to keep their jobs". These are not just comments on FI. In fact I had a OH crew tell me the 9E pilot was spewing these types of comments on the jumpseat recently. Most discussions I've had with XJ folks seem to be hopeful of the contract and SLI, most discussions I've had with 9E folk seem to turn into a phallus measuring contest.

Maybe you can't talk to yourself, but take the time to tell your members to chill out a bit.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

You know 9E guys, you can believe the purchase of Mesaba is a windfall for struggling FO's to finally upgrade. Believe it...Really. But irrespective of the pay, seniority, work rules, whatever. I have no worry's about losing my MSP Captain spot to a 9E FO.

While I don't like Uncle Phil, he isn't stupid. The training costs alone will eliminate the chance of that. Nor should Colgan guys be worried about losing there Q400 seats to a senior XJ Captain who pines for the old Dash Days (got a lot of them).

We really need to make sure that the company is serious about getting an agreement by the 15th. I am highly suspicious because I think having the three pilot groups fighting benefits management.

Lets get together keep our current positions and base. I don't know the 9E agreement but just APC rates are showing same seniority 9E Captain about $5/hr less than me. I think if XJ pilots can at least keep current book (as of Dec 1), improve the work rules that I've heard the 9E guys have, then we can have an agreement. It won't be easy.

But if the term of contract is short, then I think the majority of XJ would go for it. Yeah, I'd like the same percentage increase as what Colgan and Pinnacle is going to get but I am just not sure that's possible. But there are other benefits besides money and if those things are addressed, I may be supportive.

Stop the staple talk and the lucky to have jobs stuff. We were not a distressed sale, we are stronger in just about every sense (safety, training, etc...) lets all get on board and be stronger together. That should make Uncle Phil nervous.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

You know 9E guys, you can believe the purchase of Mesaba is a windfall for struggling FO's to finally upgrade. Believe it...Really. But irrespective of the pay, seniority, work rules, whatever. I have no worry's about losing my MSP Captain spot to a 9E FO.

While I don't like Uncle Phil, he isn't stupid. The training costs alone will eliminate the chance of that. Nor should Colgan guys be worried about losing there Q400 seats to a senior XJ Captain who pines for the old Dash Days (got a lot of them).

We really need to make sure that the company is serious about getting an agreement by the 15th. I am highly suspicious because I think having the three pilot groups fighting benefits management.

Lets get together keep our current positions and base. I don't know the 9E agreement but just APC rates are showing same seniority 9E Captain about $5/hr less than me. I think if XJ pilots can at least keep current book (as of Dec 1), improve the work rules that I've heard the 9E guys have, then we can have an agreement. It won't be easy.

But if the term of contract is short, then I think the majority of XJ would go for it. Yeah, I'd like the same percentage increase as what Colgan and Pinnacle is going to get but I am just not sure that's possible. But there are other benefits besides money and if those things are addressed, I may be supportive.

Stop the staple talk and the lucky to have jobs stuff. We were not a distressed sale, we are stronger in just about every sense (safety, training, etc...) lets all get on board and be stronger together. That should make Uncle Phil nervous.

I have been told basically the negotiatiors are just taking our concessionary contract with a very few nuggets from Pinnacle's contract and just extending the duration, only looking and hoping for industry average. Not even wanting to get anything industry leading. Oh and it certainly sounded to me like we are going to be throwing our FO's under the bus for at least the 3rd time....
So far I am still wating for even a glimer of a reason not to vote no on this turd.

 

[higney85]

I have been told basically the negotiatiors are just taking our concessionary contract with a very few nuggets from Pinnacle's contract and just extending the duration, only looking and hoping for industry average. Not even wanting to get anything industry leading. Oh and it certainly sounded to me like we are going to be throwing our FO's under the bus for at least the 3rd time....
So far I am still wating for even a glimer of a reason not to vote no on this turd.

You aren't getting a good source then..

 

[contrail67]

1500? Have you spent any time looking at the CPA agreements? Pinnacle is already run as thin as possible with old work rules, they can't run leaner than now. 9E alone is almost 1200 pilots. Add Colgan and their CPA, and Mesaba's agreement (through PNCL for the acquisition) and 1500 pilots isn't possible unless performance is so bad that contracts get cancelled or mainline (DL and CO/UAL) go under. Not saying it's not possible, being in aviation never say never, but it is highly unlikely for the total group to get halved.

Any cuts in commercial aviation will be done at the regional level..SCOPE language at United will alone slice the regionals associated with UAL.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

You aren't getting a good source then..

Well then what is the truth? I don't call it a grand sucess that we get 75% deadhead pay and FO's go to current Pinnacle 900 FO pay. All other payscales just being extended from where the Mesaba Dec 1 scale is (no final snapback next year). Now if that's NOT what's being put into the TA then please enlighten me. I don't call just keeping what Mesaba has industry leading, I call it concessionary.