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Expat Jobs

Dumb Pilot

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Is that something you would recommend?
I made a post related to the different levels of satisfaction that i see from guys who venture into the expat market on another site, recent developments (airlines that have closed down, guys getting shafted with mergers) made me think that it may be useful for some to make a post here also, I get many PM's from individuals curious about working for foreign airlines and this inquiries come from all levels and not only furloughed or regional guys contrary to popular believe, one question that I can't answer, Would you recommend it? How can I answer that? There is no way that I can give anyone a recommendation when I don't know their personality, nor their situation at home, the age of their kids, is a commuting job a good fit for them or do they want to move their family abroad, how will their better half adjust to a life as an expat, we also tend to group all expat opportunities as a "job abroad" when in fact the life style you and your family will experience is very different from region around the world, country to country and most of all, company from company, all these things will influence their overall satisfaction with a move to the expat market, many times people view an opportunity abroad as a short term endeavor, or they are looking at only one aspect of the job and not taking into consideration their day to day existence (looking only at the salary and not looking at the commuting conditions is a good example of this) and they jump into it with unrealistic expectations, I have a friend for example that took a job where the salary is very good but didn't want to face the fact that the salary is good because he is being worked close to 100 hours a month and his commuting conditions keep him away from home a lot, he has been there for less than two years and he is already fed up with the whole deal, the same job is the perfect fit for other guys that work there simply because they took the option of not commuting and moved their family with them, same exact job, very different levels of satisfaction associated with it and two different stages in life where these individuals find themselves in.That is why it is so difficult to get into the recommendation business, people need to find a good fit for them and their own situation in life therefore a good sit down with your better half should be the first step, you both need to discuss what would be the best fit for you both and your kids, trying for the option of uprooting your entire family to a foreign land only will work if your partner in life is also exited about the adventure, remember that she/he will be there all the time while you are enjoying flying to exotic destinations, they will be there dealing with the mundane doings of simple things like going to the supermarket or simply paying the bills, the day to day will be different and different can be very good and exiting or terrible depending on ones expectations and outlook on life. That is why I think that a good conversation about what lifestyle will suit you both best, really needs to be addresses and then you make a decision as to what kind of opportunity you want to target, if it is a commuting job, then what commuting conditions you need to look for, there are opportunities now in Asia for example that are offering 220,000 per year contracts on the A320, people read this and they stop reading anything else about the job, they choose to not look at the fact that the commuting conditions is 6 weeks on and 2 weeks off, they jump into it not really taking into consideration how this lifestyle will affect them, the same jobs offer another option where the money is less, about 180,000 or so but you can get 19 days on and 10 days off with the travel days, you can even target US bases with some jobs, that might best suit you and your family. If you both are exited about the prospect of moving abroad, that means that the host country will be home, that has a lot of weight associated with it, the only consideration cannot be that you will fly (insert whatever new toy here) you can be flying the latest and the greatest and still be miserable if your home life is depressing for your partner, I know 777 DEC's that hate their lives and I know Q400 guys that love what they are doing, the difference is how their better half have adjusted to their new home. And you want to know the irony of this, their T&C's are not really that far apart..!

I need a job yesterday...!
Sometimes there is no other choice but to not be too picky and get what you can due to furlough or simply because you don't have the times to tick very essential boxes, like PIC time. I've seen many cases where guys that are furloughed while they were flying a 737 or 757 but find themselves in a situation that although they are experienced pilots with time in medium to heavy A/C's but without the required PIC time to get DEC positions in similar airplanes, many guys feel compelled to look for jobs flying the same types or bigger, there is a problem with that and it is that there aren't many places that have active upgrade programs, the most popular jobs in the Middle East do and a couple of jobs in Asia, but that is it, most of the jobs available will not offer upgrades to their F/O's, those guys go for F/O positions without any possible exit because although they are getting a pretty good experience flying long haul etc. they are not getting the PIC time that will give them options, sometimes is best to step back to then step forward, there are jobs in heavier RJ'S for example that have more relaxed requirements in terms of PIC time, you can then step by getting the PIC time and then combined with your previous times, you are now able to go for the DEC position you would like, I think is a mistake to go into jobs without the possibility to upgrade, it will not make you marketable and you will end up frustrated, specially when you find yourself jerking the gear for somebody with less total time than you, less Boeing time than you, but that has tones of PIC time, don't hate the player, learn how to play the game instead. Besides, flying an Embraer 175 to get your PIC while making 13 or 14 grand a month is a great sacrifice I know, but somebody has to do it.
 

Dumb Pilot

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Who is generally happy? I have broken down what I have observed, but this of course doesn't apply to all cases.

Late 20's, early 30's, young marriage and little ones at home: this is the group where I see the most dissatisfaction even after having reached a captain's position, always frustrated by the different way they do things here vs. home and always looking into the coveted 3,000 PIC so they can go to the 777 or 747 DEC position they always wanted, but instead, this is the most likely group to make jumps from one job to the next, always looking for the greener pastures that they never seem to find and the group most likely to end up going back home due to family pressures, even if it means leaving the contract midterm and taking a huge pay-cut in the process. This is the group with wives that more easily will get tired of the lifestyle abroad because she still has her living parents and misses friends and family, increasing the pressures to go back to anything that opens up. If this group is unmarried at the commencement of their adventure abroad, the family pressures will come from the young, gorgeous Asian wife who always wanted to live in (insert any western country here) but the results are mostly the same, on average, they end up going back after a relatively short stay to the same bad market they left.
30 to 40: most likely going back at some point but usually do it in a more planned manner, tend to bypass some offers that might come along and make jumps either to another job abroad, or to a job back home only when the right opportunity comes along, or at the very last chance after haven bypassed all the recalls they could, least pressures from a more mature wife and older kids help in that relative stability and this group tends to leave one employment for the next in good terms (places more value in not burning bridges if you will) their level of satisfaction and sense of accomplishment of what they wanted when they made the jump abroad is usually higher within this group. And if unmarried when they started, they will be within just a few years. This group is more likely to post good experiences about working abroad and would do it again if they find themselves in dire straits in their local markets.
40 to 50: your move into the international market is more likely permanent, wether you know it or not, you might not stay at your current job abroad until retirement but your move won't be to go back to your recall well within furloughed fodder territory, specially with the merger mania that is going on now, your moves will be to another DEC position, the older your kids and your wife, the more likely she will join you in this adventure and if you happen to land in a country where the cost of living is inexpensive enough that she can have a maid help around the house and the both of you enjoy a quieter and slower pace, they will have to pry you both with a crowbar. You are more likely not bother by the way they "do things" abroad and more easily overlook the things that are annoying and enjoy the things that are nice, such as well maintained airplanes, rarely an MEL, plenty of gas wherever you go and the sense of pride a lot of these airline employees have in their work, something that is long missing in many western countries. You are least likely to be chasing airplanes but rather, QOL and your level of satisfaction with your move abroad is usually high.
And if you are in your 50's and divorced? Oh jeez, you are really not taking a recall or a job back home even if it is to UPS,SWA or British Airways for that matter, I can guarantee that with all the over 35 unmarried beauties out here in Asia and after you are on the left seat, enjoying the bachelor life style and living the jet setter life, weekends in Fiji, a trip to go watch the formula one race in Singapore..... You get the picture, you are going to want to be in reserve in Louisville or do 6 sectors on a 737 during the summer in the Midwest like you are going to want a third nut.

This is all a generalization of course but it has been my observation, depending on where you find yourself in life, your job hunt should be about the long term goal and what you want to accomplish with your move abroad, in any way you should try to seek employment opportunities that will give you PIC time in the shortest time possible because the PIC time is what gives you options, if it is to eventually go home or to get a better job abroad, PIC time is the key, so you should avoid jobs where your chances to upgrade are minimal (or nil as it is the case with KAL) be aware that the plan to come just for a couple of years, is very rarely the case and that time goes by very fast, I have been here going on six years and it sure doesn't feel like it. Don't count with a move abroad to be less than 5 years, even if that is your intention because it rarely is the case unless you are in the first group I described.

The best of luck on your job hunt.
 

tyuwerty

Quit your whining!
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Posts
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EXCELLENT post.

Accurate observations.

I left USA at the age of 35, now 42, NO plans to return.

I put up with many "bad things" overseas, but the good far out weighs the bad.
 

5w5flyer

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Besides, flying an Embraer 175 to get your PIC while making 13 or 14 grand a month is a great sacrifice I know, but somebody has to do it.
Where is this at? When I was furloughed I couldn't get any of the 170/145 jobs out there because I was no longer current in type. I had types in both and over 2500 PIC in the 145, but was told that I would not be interviewed because I was out of currency.
 

5w5flyer

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Same for CRJ jobs, all my CRJ time was as PIC, but no currency = no interview.
 

BobbyBiplane

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A friend told me that Saudi Aramco is looking for experienced pilots, mechanics, QC/QA and engineering folks. The have a fleet of 737s, EMB-170s, G550s, H-900s, king Airs, Air Tractors, AW-109s and AW-139s. All are based in the Eastern Province and ex-pat community housing provided. The pay is excellent as are the people.

Bob
 

WYOMINGPILOT

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Where is this at? When I was furloughed I couldn't get any of the 170/145 jobs out there because I was no longer current in type. I had types in both and over 2500 PIC in the 145, but was told that I would not be interviewed because I was out of currency.

Excellent Post DP and some great observations but there are distinct regional differences between the Middle East, China, Japan and SE Asian countries.

China has several E-175/190 contracts paying 14K per month and E-145 and CRJ contracts paying 10-12K per month but you must be Age 55 or less, current within 12 months and over 500 hours PIC. One contract allows E-145 pilots to progress to the E-190 after 1-2 years and then move to the A-320 after 3 more years of having been on the E-190.

If you are out of currency you can always buy a sim recurrent package from places like Pan Am and others. Several Ex Pat jobs actually require you to pay for your annual recurrent on your own time/dime. There are also options for a 1 hour charter flight around the field to establish currency. You have to adapt and be creative to stay within the currency window but the reward can be HUGE. I know of several 737 Captains who chartered a 737 in order to fly and establish currency. China needs Captains very bad but FO jobs are few and far between and all Captain jobs require currency, time on type and less than age 55.
 

climbhappy

ex pat
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Aug 11, 2002
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i love it.....and my chinese girlfriend...in china, you're a rock star...

the asian girls are so sweet and they dont' give you a rash of $h.

i'll never go back making 15 tax free a month

but it is different for everybody....i love traveling so i will visit the usa

my advice: don't over analyze ...just do it.....dont believe all the negative crap you read either....lots of pissed guys venting...divide it by 3 or 4
 

climbhappy

ex pat
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Skymark in japan is taking CRJ and EMB dudes for the NG

they are growing like crazy and some of my colleagues have left shenzhen airlines to go there after their 3 year deal...

WASINC is one of the agents...
 

cameltoad

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Hey Climb happy
I was in SXZ for two years, back in the states and hating it, where are they going in Japan? And is it for the Airbus or the Boeing
 

climbhappy

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it is Skymark..for the 737NG....
and they have orders for A330s and plans for A380s....say they will let ex pats upgrade to those...
 

AA717driver

A simpler time...
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Hey Climb happy
I was in SXZ for two years, back in the states and hating it, where are they going in Japan? And is it for the Airbus or the Boeing

Camel--do you have any 320 PIC? WASINC is looking for 320 CA's for China. Paying big bucks.

TC
 

cameltoad

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AA717driver
I actually was at SZX as a WASinc guy for 2 years, I really liked it but the CAAC docs didn't like me. they were convinced that I was going to have a heart attack at any moment, Treadmill, CTA, Ultrasound, MIBI scan, passed them all, even went to a cardiac specialist in Hong Kong to make sure. Absolutely nothing wrong with me. But even after all that they dreamed up one more test, and angiogram, and I said no way. I really hated leaving, I hope to go back overseas, I've spent the last year trying to get in the best shape possible (I've lost 50lbs) who knows I might try again
 

macdu

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?
You may have some luck with a different outfit located in a different CAAC medical district. They don't share information yet as crazy as it sounds,but hey this is China. If you can come interview with an airline that uses a different medical district you will be starting from ground zero so to speak. It's worth a try.
Needless to say the medicals here have simply gone crazy. My airline recently failed over one hundred guys for a presumably off the scale liver enzyme test. BS! Some of us think it's a shake down by the CAAC doc's to the airline.
You say you have lost 50# that's great, but also tells me you were outside their impractical ideal of what is healthy. Anyway good on you for getting yourself in shape and best of luck to you on the future expat job. Pm me if you like I'm in the PRC.
 
Last edited:

avratdwc

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Hey everyone, does a corporate guy stand a chance to get into some of these gigs without having 121 time. I have 135 though, dont know if that is weighed.

Would love to get the family to HK, Dubai etc.

Comments are appreciated.

Thanks,

Avrat
 

Dumb Pilot

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Hey everyone, does a corporate guy stand a chance to get into some of these gigs without having 121 time. I have 135 though, dont know if that is weighed.

Would love to get the family to HK, Dubai etc.

Comments are appreciated.

Thanks,

Avrat

I would absolutely love for someone to contradict what I am about to say, but it has been my experience that without actual airline operation experience, it is very unlikely you will get an airline job abroad, the good news is that the corporate side of things abroad is exploding along with their middle and upper class.
 

avratdwc

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Thanks for the reply. I would love to hear a contradiction as well but I guess its par for the course.

Can you or anyone else elaborate on Saudi Aramco and how they are to work for. I did a search on the site but found 3-4 year old info.

Thanks,
 
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