Exceeding limitations

[flyboydk]

Does anyone know how bad exceeding redline on a citation has the potential to be? For example, redline at 292 knots and you have it at 300 knots for about 5 or 10 minutes... is it just minor or is there a good chance at structural damage after a little while? I just flew with this guy who kept pulling the overspeed warning circuit breaker, I would keep saying "watch your speed" when he got over redline, not trying to be annoying to him but at the same time I didn't want to run into some good turbulence and watch the plane fall apart... so on our descent he just stopped listening to me and kept it at 300-305 knots most of the way down. I don't think it was safe, wondering what people out there with more experience think.

 

[Diesel]

I take it a 500? I don't think there is any inspection.

I know the XL is different though because of the moving tail. Which only moves during flap movement but its still an inspection of some sort. (i was told my mx never flew it.)

 

[Rick1128]

There is a certain fudge factor built in aircraft. But that is to cover situations outside the the engineer's imagination, not the 'captain' in a hurry to get a piece of a$$. Intentionally going over limitations is for emergency situations ONLY.

 

[charter dog]

This guy's ego is writing checks his body can't cash!

Seriously, tell him you would appreciate it if he would not intentionally exceed the limiting airspeeds. (first be sure it is not just an indication difference between the two ASIs) If he does not agree to this, you have little choice but to decline further flights with this individual. It is up to you how you will explain to the bosses why you will not be able to fly with this individual. I would also file an ASRS report and retain a copy for my records. Whether you use this document for any other purpose is also up to you. My personal opinion is that this matter must be disclosed to the owners or operators of the aircraft if this pilot is to continue operating it in this manner. If you have to pay a price for it, so be it. Balance that against the consequences of saying nothing. Nobody likes a tattle tale, but how will they like you if you knew but said nothing before the crash?

Obviously, the best outcome would be to bring about a change in behavior in this individual by reasoning with him. If this is not possible by talking to him about it, or by getting someone else to help, then you have little choice after exhausting these "gentler" alternatives but to refuse to fly with him and disclose your reasons to the ownership in written form. In any case, do not allow this to happen again. This apparent compulsion to exceed limitations may be indicative of a larger pattern of behavior which might get somebody hurt. Make sure it isn't you. Let your conscience be your guide in what you do beyond that.

I don't know anything about the high speed flight regime of the Citation, so I cannot advise you on the overspeed characteristics of this type. I wonder if this "captain" can. Just don't allow it to occur with you on board.

I don't envy you this situation and I hope you can find a way to resolve it without the necessity to resort to bringing others into the issue. But do what you must to resolve it.

Best,

 

[AngelKing]

Usually when somene does things like pulling cbs to go faster, they usually do other unsafe things as well, like busting minimums,etc.

ak

 

[GravityHater]

It really sux when people do such things, but it is time for you to bring out your leadership skills. A little private chat on the ground before the next flight.

 

[Say Again Over]

Fly with someone else.

 

[xcrew]

the high speed flight regime of the Citation,

Isn't that an oxymoron?

 

[Lead Sled]

There is a certain fudge factor built in aircraft. But that is to cover situations outside the the engineer's imagination, not the 'captain' in a hurry to get a piece of a$$. Intentionally going over limitations is for emergency situations ONLY.

I once had a Chief Pilot tell us (in a flight department meeting)... "There is enough safety margin built into the performance charts so that we can safely ignore them." [Note: I no longer work there.] Evidently, you're a young guy at the beginning of your career. I'm a bit older and have (hopefully) another 8 to 10 years left in me. There is nothing to be gained and potientially everything to lose by flying outside of the envelope. We can and do take it safely to the edge, but never beyond - that's what they pay us the big bucks for. Pulling circuit breakers to get another few knots? The guy is a real fool for doing it and an idiot if he thinks that the extra 10 knots indicated is saving anyone anything - time or money. You shouldn't be flying with fools and/or idiots - it's not good for your long-term career prospects. Just my opinion.

'Sled

 

[tej823]

Having flown a few hours in flight test and consequently spent hours in discussions with flight test engineers...exceeding limitations especially airspeed / mach etc. will buy you a quick (yes even in a Citation) trip to the end of your carreer and a very pleasant story about you sad short life in the obituary column.

The required margins that are tested during certification are actually very small, and if a manufacturer can get the airplane to legally (structual / certification limits or whatever) go faster they will move that redline up. Test pilots get paid good money to expand envelopes, and it is done under very controlled situations.

Best advice has been already given...document the problem...and if nobody higher up responds...exit the premises.

 

[Lead Sled]

...I would also file an ASRS report and retain a copy for my records. Whether you use this document for any other purpose is also up to you...

Filing an ASRS report is pointless - pulling circuit breakers in order to be able to go fast isn't an inadvertant and/or unintentional act.

'Sled

 

[2000flyer]

Usually when somene does things like pulling cbs to go faster, they usually do other unsafe things as well, like busting minimums,etc.

ak

My thought exactly!

 

[stknrdr]

It would be hard to add to the quality advice already given. Do a soul search, tighten up the neck tie, and show your professionalism with your actions. An old pilot once relayed to me that "Reckless" is when you're consciously aware of the danger and you choose to ignore it. Enough said....

Good luck.

 

[some_dude]

First of all, I agree with everyone above that exceeding limitations is stupid, and you should find someone else to fly with.

I think I can shed a little light on Citations specifically, at least the old ones. The original Citations (the 500) had a Vmo up in the 280-300 knot range. Then, I believe due to birdstrike issues, the Vmo on the 501s and 550s was reduced to 262.

This reduction led some people to believe that if there were no birds around (at least until you hit one), it was okay to pull the breaker and do 280 in your 262 Vmo Citation, since that used to be the limit.

I suspect this rationalization got handed down over the years, and may have been distorted.

Either way, it's a bad idea.

 

[rjacobs]

So he was doing 300 with a 292 redline. Why would you exceed it to go 8 knots faster and risk some bad stuff happening. If redline was 292 and he pulled the breaker to cruise up in the 350 range that would make a bit more sense, although still dangerous no matter what. But 8 knots, come on, deal with the limitations and the 8 knots difference. Does your company have an incapacitated crew member plan? If we make three statements to the other pilot and they dont respond then we can assume they are incapacitated and take over the aircraft. Try that and if he yells at you tell him you thought he was incapacitated since he didnt respond.

 

[flyboydk]

The problem is that this guy is the boss. And from what I've seen he's not the type to take criticism very well. I could give numerous examples of times he's been completely wrong about something while we were flying and he wouldn't admit it. For instance, on that same flight, we were assigned an altitude on the arrival coming through the class bravo... he was hand flying, then he thought he set the autopilot, but he didn't hit altitude hold, so the plane starts a slow climb. I said "hey, we're climbing" when we were about 50 feet high. He says "No we're not, the autopilot's on". By that time we are 100 feet high and I'm starting to push the nose over. I tell him he never set the autopilot and he said he was watching the VSI and it never said we were climbing so he thought we were OK. By this time I'm pissed off, I wanted to yell something like "why the *@!# are you just sitting there staring at the VSI when your altimeter and my altimeter are indicating a climb?!?!" If he was an instrument student from my flight instructing days I would have given him a good lecture on instrument scans once we got on the ground. I'm not saying I'm a perfect pilot but this guy has a lot of hours and I'm starting to wonder how he lasted this long without at least a few violations. So I guess I need to keep my eyes open for another job, because I don't think talking to him is going to help anything.

 

[Brett Hull]

Just make fun of him. "Wow, Bob. That 8 knots will get us there a whole 1 minute faster." All while giving him this look:

 

[G100driver]

May be a little heavy handed, but if you have the confidence of the aircraft OWNER you might want to let him know that his EMPLOYEE is putting his ASSET at risk by exceeding the manufactures LIMITATIONS ....

Let him know that you are telling him this because it makes you uncomfortable to fly an airplane outside its design limits. Be ready to have a Cessna tech to immediately talk to the aircraft owner and explain the aircraft limitations and why they are in place.

In mean time ... look for a new job.

Good luck ... you will need it.

 

[landlover]

smoking hole waiting to happen, what an idiot. You should get him some NTSB reports of the guys that pulled the over speed warning CB on the old lears. Hitting the ground going 30,000 feet per minute cant be comfortable.

 

[Hawker800]

I unintentionaly hit the barber pole in our Hawker. Horn sounded. It is a loud horn. Immediately took corrective action. A passenger heard the horn and got concerned about his safety. Big boss assigned me to the right seat until further notice. Were we unsafe, no, but perception is a great deal of this game. Not a good idea to exceed limitations. Do it on purpose, bad. Enough said.