Ex-Gulfstream International Airline pilot files complaint with FAA

[JustaNumber]

So let me see, you guys are now scared to fly without TCAS, because you are the final authority, and look what happened in Los Angeles, yata yata... You guys are hilarious.

No, I'm not scared to fly without TCAS, done it many times. You're missing the main point of this discussion, though: a captain being disciplined for using judgment to comply with the regs. The regs require him to consider the interrelationship of MEL items, and to act as the final authority as to the safe operation of the flight. This particular captain did just that, and was fired. If we start nit picking which judgment calls are allowed and which aren't, we might as well kiss Captain's Authority goodbye, and THAT would be a severe detriment to safety. Why even have a captain? Do you really want that?

 

[Say Again Over]

No, I'm not scared to fly without TCAS, done it many times. You're missing the main point of this discussion, though: a captain being disciplined for using judgment to comply with the regs. The regs require him to consider the interrelationship of MEL items, and to act as the final authority as to the safe operation of the flight. This particular captain did just that, and was fired. If we start nit picking which judgment calls are allowed and which aren't, we might as well kiss Captain's Authority goodbye, and THAT would be a severe detriment to safety. Why even have a captain? Do you really want that?

Well please allow me to disagree with that logic, as far as the MEL goes, it's pretty much black or white as far as airworthiness. The regs require him to consider what???? I'm sorry but the approved MMEL does this. Nit picking judgement calls, please tell why one would not be able to fly across Florida safely without the use of TCAS, all you guys are trying to blow smoke up my ### telling me about captain's final authority bla bla but not one of you has pointed out why this was such a wise decision. Now take into consideration that on any given day, there are several aircraft operating in the system without TCAS because of the class they're in and several others that probably have inoperative systems and are following their MEL procedures, so based on your logic, I will now have to use my authority to cancel all flights?

Bottom line is that YES, you can decide not to accept a flight but you need to have some reasonable justification, what was it in this case, oh ya, the DC9 accident in LA, good luck, this guy will never be able to keep a job if that's the best he can do.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Well please allow me to disagree with that logic, as far as the MEL goes, it's pretty much black or white as far as airworthiness. The regs require him to consider what???? I'm sorry but the approved MMEL does this.

I agree with you that the MEL and maintenance determine mechanical airworthiness, but we are still required to determine operational airworthiness. For example, it may be legal to defer the autopilot, but what if you are flying on a 5 hour flight with a brand new FO into an airport surrounded by level 5 thunderstorms and the radar display is also legally deferred only on the captain's side? Mechanically airworthy, yes, but operationally is for the capt. to decide.

Just like in this situation, everybody is going to have a different answer. Some people may have been comfortable taking the A/C in florida with no TCAS and pressurization through a training area and some may not. However, unless the refusal is extremely egregious, a termination is probably extreme.

 

[sswanson]

INOP TCAS will ground an airplane?

That' what I don't get.

I know you need it for RVSM airspace.

I guess looking out the window doesn't count anymore.

Ok I get... they fly in the south where there is a lot of solid IFR condition.

Dude its a 1900, Im pretty sure they dont spend time in RVSM.

 

[Say Again Over]

Well I've worked at a lot of different operations and refusing to take a flight is always a BIG (as in a trip to the chief pilot's office) problem. By the way, TCAS is not required in RVSM.

 

[JustaNumber]

The regs require him to consider what???? I'm sorry but the approved MMEL does this.

You didn't read my previous post. The regs specifically require him to consider the interrelationship of multiple MEL items; NO, the MMEL does not do this.

DIRECTLY FROM THE MEL:
"When operating with multiple inoperative items, the
interrelationships between those items and the effect on aircraft operation and crew workload will be
considered.
WHEN USING THE MEL, COMPLIANCE WITH THE STATED INTENT OF THE PREAMBLE,
DEFINITIONS, AND THE CONDITIONS AND LIMITATIONS SPECIFIED IN THE MEL IS REQUIRED."

Nit picking judgement calls, please tell why one would not be able to fly across Florida safely without the use of TCAS, all you guys are trying to blow smoke up my ### telling me about captain's final authority bla bla but not one of you has pointed out why this was such a wise decision.

I don't have to tell you why it was a wise decision. The FARs specifically say that it's the captain's decision, wise or not. Not your decision, not my decision, not GIA's decision, but the captain's decision.

By your logic, you think that the captain can make decisions only if they pass your definition of "wise". Do you really want management to have FAR 91.3 changed to read that "The company and the administrator will jointly be directly responsible for, and are the final authority as to, the safe operation of that aircraft." That's not a road that I want to go down.

I still just can't believe that you're advocating giving away captain's authority, perfect decisions or not.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

This guy wasn't fired for exercising his PIC authority and canceling this particular flight. That would be silly (which it is anyhow).

IMO, the termination did not take place in such a vacuum. There was more animosity involved aside from a single cancelled flight.

Just my speculation.

 

[JustaNumber]

Well I've worked at a lot of different operations and refusing to take a flight is always a BIG (as in a trip to the chief pilot's office) problem.

Just because management at the companies you've worked for have intimidated you into giving up captain's authority, doesn't make it morally, ethically, or even legally right. Grow some cajones, why don't you!

Sure, the company can try to make it a big deal (they're just trying to make as much money as possible), but if you want to make your own decisions as captain, you have every right to. Heck, you've got the FARs to back you up, and you, and the captain in question here, will win any legal battle in question.

 

[Say Again Over]

Just because management at the companies you've worked for have intimidated you into giving up captain's authority, doesn't make it morally, ethically, or even legally right. Grow some cajones, why don't you!

You're making a lot of assumptions you know nothing about, and it doesn't take cajones to operate an aircraft safely, but a little bit of education and experience, please tell me what FAR's allow me to refuse a perfectly safe operation, and do some more reading on MEL procedures, if any two defects interfere with each other it will be so stated.

 

[Say Again Over]

JustaNumber I wll retract my statement on the MEL as there can be minor conflicts when several items are defective however this isn't an issue in this case.

Amish RakeFight
Thanks for the information, assumed this story had more to it, but got tied up on this captains authority issue a bit, all good fun.