ESTABLISHED on a DME ARC ?

[Ty Webb]

Originally posted by FlyChicaga
[I'm curious, how do most FMS handle arcs? Can they even do so?

Yup. The Honeywell FMS in the B717 and MD11 can do 'em, and, if memory serves me correctly, the GNS-XLS will do them too.

 

[AWACoff]

I've got to agree with everybody else, FNG. I am almost certain you are in error in regards to "established". I dig through my AIM today and pull out the proper reference. Just to reiterate my thought, you are considered established upon the course "coming alive" which means you may descend. You might want to stay away from both airlines I've flown at as everybody I've ever flown with has flown that way. In fact, stay away from United, American, Delta, Comair, Air Wisconsin, ASA, Great Lakes, and others I can't think of right now. I've been in the cockpits for all those airlines while jumpseating and have seen crews fly the same way. If you flew the way you profess to, you wouldn't initiate a turn to intercept a course until you were on "centerline". You would fly through the course every time and I know for a fact the AIM reccomends differently.

 

[The FNG]

Whatever guys, especially Ty. I bet you're a real A-hole to fly with, panties in a wad the whole time. The FAs probably nickname you Richard Head. And don't put words in my mouth. I've lost many friends in the military and unfortunately continue to do so.

Yeah, Cali was simplified, but if you want I'll email you the transcript for your records.

This could go on and on. When flying from one airway to another, true you lead the turn to fly centerline to centerline but which one are you established on? Both courses are alive. So in between are you on both or none or what. To me when I'm centered on one I'm established on that then when I'm centered on the other I'm established on that. In between I'm established on neither. I even have a word for that in between part, TRANSITIONING! Same with ALT to GS, vectors to NAV (DME arc for example). It's one or the other or transitioning in between. Established: "...stable or fixed on...", seems pretty clear.

We're getting into semantics... Just fly safely.

With regard to loading an arc simply select the transition. Also, DME arc waypoints are coded based on their position i.e., D123L means DME waypoint off the 123 radial at (count the letters) 12 DME. (Ty took off his shoes for that)

 

[Ty Webb]

There's a new Idiot in the Village

You're either very immature, very inexperienced, or both. I have been posting to this board for over five years, and have learned a long time ago not to waste time with obnoxious, boorish a-holes like yourself who haven't even figured out yet how little they truly do know- both about life, and about our profession.

Congratulations- you are my first "Banned Poster". You can have the last word. I'm going to the beach.

 

[AWACoff]

FNG, I was unable to come up with any supporting data for my position as it does not exist in the AIM. The definition of "Established" in the P/C glossary is ambiguous at best. I believe you are 100% correct when you say we are arguing semantics. You potato, I say potato. I don't think we can prove who is "right".

 

[Checks]

FNG is an idiot.

Anyways, back to the original question. I have only flown a DME arc once in my life(CFII checkride) and I remember 1mile being the tolerance off course. What I cant remeber is if that is 1 mile total tolerance or 1 mile either side.
EXAMPLE:
11dme arc...off course at 12 DME or 11.5?

Thanks

 

[AWACoff]

1 mile either side ie. 11 DME arc means between 10 and 12 miles.

On a side note, my Jepps didn't discuss what "established" means either. There must be something out there that is less ambiguous than the P/C glossary.

 

[A Squared]

well, I don't know what the official "chekride" definition of "established" on a DME arc is. From a practical "when is it safe to descend" viewpoint consider this: the obstruction clearence criteria for a initial approach segment based on an arc is essentially the same as for an airway, 1000 feet out to 4 miles either side, then 500 feet tapering to 0 for 2 more miles. In other words, if you're at 10 DME on the proper altitude a 10 DME arc, you're at least 6 miles from anything at your altitude or above. Does this mean you can start down at 16 out on a 10 DME arc? well that would be a little unwise, but if you're inside of 2 miles and turning and the arc is coming in nicely, you're really going to have to do something wild in order to hit something.

regards

 

[Ty Webb]

A Squared:

Nice to have you weigh in on this one . . . but if you really want to participate in this string, you're going to need to insult someone's mother or at least become blasphemous. Just simply paraphrasing the TERPS manual isn;t going to cut it, not for for this string. . . . no how, no way.

WFWT

PS- thought about pulling the ol' "weedwhacker" out of storage, but decided against it.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>you're going to need to insult someone's mother

Ummm, OK ... your mother flys a sloppy ILS

>>>>or at least become blasphemous

OK....Did you hear about the dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac.........?



PS- thought about pulling the ol' "weedwhacker" out of storage, but decided against it.

hehe .... a classic like the weedwhacker should be saved for special occasions .... this tool doesn't merit it.

regards

 

[The FNG]

Oh, you weren't finished yet. Well, allow me to retort...

(Hey somebody's gotta put some personality into this thing!)

Lets see, where to begin...

Ok, the fun(ny) stuff.

[I have been posting to this board for over five years, and have learned a long time ago blah, blah, blah...]

Five years! Wow, you really are King Sh*t of Turd Mountain!

[Considering I have a monsterous pile of automation-related documents and materials sitting on the floor right now, containing an analysis of the Cali crash in detail, no thank you.]

Oh yeah, I bet my mounstrous pile of stuff is bigger than your mounstrous pile of stuff.

[FNG is an idiot]

Ok, I'm the idiot but you're the one one who's only flown one DME arc and doesn't know di*k about it? Hmmm...

[...haven't even figured out yet how little they truly do know- both about life, and about our profession]

Since we're playing armchair psychologist let me have a crack at it.

(Stately older gentleman sitting in a leather wingback chair, reading glasses lowered slightly...)

"It's NOT about WHO'S right. It's about WHAT'S right."

Some of you just don't get it. Playing one person against another will never get you anywhere in a conversation, a debate, or "life" (Ty).

Debate the subject. Period. Everything else is a waste of time. I see more quoting here than anywhere else; and people chiming in saying someone's wrong, or I'm right, or they're right.

[Sorry, Chief, but he's right . . . . and you're wrong.]

What kind of juvenile bullsh*t is that?

Of course, this idea requires a higher level of understanding of the concepts of interpersonal relationships. So I can see it going over some peoples heads (I won't even say it).

And just to set the record straight, I was the one quoted first, (with an offhanded comment to boot) followed by a blindside post with the first name calling. Hey, I'll go toe-to-toe with anyone but what kills me is the people who pick a fight then when the going gets rough cry about their p*ssy hurting. Besides, I'm just having fun, while some of you are actually serious.

Oh yeah, here's another one: "Take your job seriously, but not yourself."

So to reiterate, "It's about WHAT'S right, not WHO'S right."

And for those into cliche's, "Fix the problem, NOT the blame."

So lets stick to debating the issues so people who don't know how to fly DME arcs but call people names can learn something.

PS: Nobody has even attempted to debate the technical elements of my previous posts. What's up with that? (But, if you want to sling mud I can do that too. Weehaaa!)

 

[100LL... Again!]

FNG-

Although your aviation dogma is entertaining to read, you are in over your head when it comes to the actual facts here. You are absolutely wrong. If you want to wait until you have a centered needle before descending, have at it. But to impugn the professionalism of pilots who apparently are more well-read on the topic is not helpful. By the way, you lobbed the first grenade.

It reminds me of the attitude of a lot of regional new hires that feel a need to teach the captain how to fly the aircraft - after all they are the one with the flashy degree from an aviation university.

Your point about side lobes is correct, but no one is advocating a descent to the inbound altitude just 'cause the needle twitched a little. Besides, who is so positionally unaware that they can't tell a side lobe from the real thing (couldn't resist). Also, side lobes behave VERY differently than the course centerline, and will not produce stable indications.

Also, you assert that flying an entire approach with the needle half a dot off center is not established? Laughable. Before you make the obvious slam, I fly 'em centered, but that's beside the point. I guess you are the safest pilot in the world.

Ignorance is optional.

Quick trivia questions:

#1 How far outbound can you fly from the IAF on a typical approach at the PT altitude before you theoretically hit something?

#2 If the PT altutude is 3000, but you arrive at the IAF at 3500, what is the criteria for beginning a descent?

a. Arriving at the IAF
b. Turning outbound
c. Course alive outbound
d. Needle centered outbound

The answer may surprise you.

 

[A Squared]

#1, 18 miles

#2, A, unless the procedure specifies a minimum altitude to maintain until established outbound from the IAF, the manuvering area and the entry area provide the same obstacle clearence.

 

[midlifeflyer]

On a side note, my Jepps didn't discuss what "established" means either. There must be something out there that is less ambiguous than the P/C glossary.

Why "must" there be? Not =every= detail of =every= operation =has to= be defined. (Of course, for some people it does - it's a personality thing)


The FAR doesn't contain a definition. At least suggests that the definition is =intended= to be loose, perhaps contemplating the use of different nav systems or even different opSpecs.

 

[80/20]

TonyC are you asking for cockpit nav indications that defines "established on a DME ARC"? (Or for the point on the arrival where you can continue the descent?)