ESTABLISHED on a DME ARC ?

[Singlecoil]

Thanks Tyweb

Thanks for putting the flames out, I was seriously on fire there for a moment. I wasn't sure where to start on a reply to that one...trees in my landing gear? Please. I think he threw in a no $hit sherlock, even.
We definitely all know what FNG stands for...

 

[The FNG]

["Established" means that you have reliable course indication, within the tolerances of the instrument.]

Ever heard of side lobes? Course alive is hardly a reliable course indication, hence the delay before LOC. Besides, what's your reference? If you have one I'll stand corrected.

Just thinking out loud here, but does established on a heading then mean a few degrees either side? Altitude mean a few hundred feet plus or minus?

[BTW- Even in the B717, one of the most technologically advanced, (full autoland) aircraft out there right now, we get a "LOC Capture" indication long before it ever centers, sometimes before I would call it "captured" myself]

There's a difference between localizer alive and LOC capture tough guy. Besides, you're confusing automation with procedure. When climbing to capture 10k does automation (non-auto-throttle) accelerate above 250 a few hundred feet below? Yes it does. And is it acceptable? Yes it is. Why? Because it's been certified that way and the POI blessed it. During level acceleration on a V1 profile does the aircraft descend a few hundred feet? Yes. Do the FARs allow a descent? No. You guessed it hero, automation. Same with approach mode. You can't capture GS until after you have LOC. Is the needle centered. No it isn't. But that's automation not procedure.

[Of course, a gigantic weenie like you would just focus on the minutaie until he ran into the ground, because he didn;t understand the term "relevance"]

Speaking of running into the ground, I guess you consider minutia silly things like o2 canisters too.

 

[Ty Webb]

There's a difference between localizer alive and LOC capture tough guy. Besides, you're confusing automation with procedure.

This is so nonsensical, there is nothing here to discuss.

When climbing to capture 10k does automation (non-auto-throttle) accelerate above 250 a few hundred feet below?

I don;t know. I don;t know what you are flying. It doesn;t in mine. Relevant? No.

You During level acceleration on a V1 profile does the aircraft descend a few hundred feet? Yes.

A "V1 profile"? Are you refering to V3/Final segment acceleration phase? No airplane descends at that time, not a Part 25 Transport Category aircraft. What the hell are you talking about?


Do the FARs allow a descent? No. You guessed it hero, automation.

Don't know what piece of junk you're flying, but mine doesn't descend during V3 acceleration, if that is what you're talking about. Of course, I usually hand-fly this portion of my checkrides, but when I have demo'd the procedure coupled, mine does just fine. Anyway, again, it's not relevant.

Same with approach mode. You can't capture GS until after you have LOC. Is the needle centered. No it isn't. But that's automation not procedure.

more tripe. Has no relevance. Do you actually have anything worthwhile to say? Still reading .. . . . . hmmnnn.

Speaking of running into the ground, I guess you consider minutia silly things like o2 canisters too.

I don't know of any professional pilot who would actually write something like this. I guess you were still in diapers when this happened (7 years ago) but I'll bring you up to date . . . . those cannisters were marked as "empty" by a company who was trying to save a few bucks. They shipped them aboard, in closed containers, and the captain's paperwork indicated they were empty, and therefore approved for shipment . . . they caught fire in flight, killed everyone, and now an @sshole like you, who obvioulsy isn;t fit to lick the shoes of that crew, uses this in a post about when to descend from a DME Arc?

Why don't you taka a few minutes here and tell me and the rest of your peers what YOU do differently that would have prevented this accident? Please- do tell us how you personally open every box that makes it's way into your cargo compartment, and how you are a superior aviator?

Because we are all waiting.

Obviously, you have no place in professional aviation, or you need to sit it out on the sidelines until you have developed some maturity.

 

[The FNG]

Lighten up Francis. That's what's so entertaining about this site, people like you who are so predictable and thin-skinned.

I won't debate the details of our last exchanges. I'd be getting into too much minutia. But trust me, my statements are statements of fact and I believe you are incorrect on several points.

Let's bottom line it then. It's all about safety. You got young kids on here looking for mentorship and people like you advocating the margins of safety. Why argue about flying needles centered? Flying the centerline? Flying a degree? Flying a knot? Can any of this be done absolutely perfectly? Not by me and I bet not by you either. But the difference is at least I try. That to me is professionalism.

With regard to the original subject, if it's an 11 DME arc, then fly 11 DME. If instrument error has you actually flying 11.5 then at least you've done your best. But if you believe flying an 11 DME arc at 12 or 13 or 14 DME is all the same then add to that instrument error and you see what I'm getting at.

I thought about the crash reference before I wrote it but I wanted to emphasise a point. Someone at somepoint minimized the importance of the task at hand. Either a supervisor training a box stuffer, or the box stuffer himself or maybe the manager who wrote the training syllabus. Whatever, someone at somepoint had the responsibility to adhere to the standard and they didn't.

How about AA in Cali. Just a couple wrong key pushes... Someone thought those details were minutia too. Do you consider limitations minutia? Why not just say green good, red bad, yellow not so good.

Or Air Midwest. Elevator trim rigged at the margin combined with CG load at the margin... If someone adhered to the standard and not the + or - allowance the tragic chain could have been broken.

Know the standard. That's my point.

I believe established means "stable or fixed ON the course". If it's 11 DME the that means 11 DME. If the final approach course says 180 degrees then its 180 degrees. If the airway radial says R-240 then ...

Anyway, do what you want. My work here is done and I'm bored. Time to get my Jerry Springer and WWF Smackdown fix...tough guy.

Had to throw that in! Relax, relax, take a deep breath...

 

[Ty Webb]

Lighten up Francis. That's what's so entertaining about this site, people like you who are so predictable and thin-skinned.[/i]


Anyone who would invoke a dead crew with such a complete and utter lack of respect and who thinks that it is "entertaining" to do so is not someone I will be wasting any time with.

 

[Ty Webb]

Originally posted by FlyChicaga
[I'm curious, how do most FMS handle arcs? Can they even do so?

Yup. The Honeywell FMS in the B717 and MD11 can do 'em, and, if memory serves me correctly, the GNS-XLS will do them too.

 

[AWACoff]

I've got to agree with everybody else, FNG. I am almost certain you are in error in regards to "established". I dig through my AIM today and pull out the proper reference. Just to reiterate my thought, you are considered established upon the course "coming alive" which means you may descend. You might want to stay away from both airlines I've flown at as everybody I've ever flown with has flown that way. In fact, stay away from United, American, Delta, Comair, Air Wisconsin, ASA, Great Lakes, and others I can't think of right now. I've been in the cockpits for all those airlines while jumpseating and have seen crews fly the same way. If you flew the way you profess to, you wouldn't initiate a turn to intercept a course until you were on "centerline". You would fly through the course every time and I know for a fact the AIM reccomends differently.

 

[The FNG]

Whatever guys, especially Ty. I bet you're a real A-hole to fly with, panties in a wad the whole time. The FAs probably nickname you Richard Head. And don't put words in my mouth. I've lost many friends in the military and unfortunately continue to do so.

Yeah, Cali was simplified, but if you want I'll email you the transcript for your records.

This could go on and on. When flying from one airway to another, true you lead the turn to fly centerline to centerline but which one are you established on? Both courses are alive. So in between are you on both or none or what. To me when I'm centered on one I'm established on that then when I'm centered on the other I'm established on that. In between I'm established on neither. I even have a word for that in between part, TRANSITIONING! Same with ALT to GS, vectors to NAV (DME arc for example). It's one or the other or transitioning in between. Established: "...stable or fixed on...", seems pretty clear.

We're getting into semantics... Just fly safely.

With regard to loading an arc simply select the transition. Also, DME arc waypoints are coded based on their position i.e., D123L means DME waypoint off the 123 radial at (count the letters) 12 DME. (Ty took off his shoes for that)

 

[Ty Webb]

There's a new Idiot in the Village

You're either very immature, very inexperienced, or both. I have been posting to this board for over five years, and have learned a long time ago not to waste time with obnoxious, boorish a-holes like yourself who haven't even figured out yet how little they truly do know- both about life, and about our profession.

Congratulations- you are my first "Banned Poster". You can have the last word. I'm going to the beach.

 

[AWACoff]

FNG, I was unable to come up with any supporting data for my position as it does not exist in the AIM. The definition of "Established" in the P/C glossary is ambiguous at best. I believe you are 100% correct when you say we are arguing semantics. You potato, I say potato. I don't think we can prove who is "right".