ERJ skids off icy runway in CLE

[Saluki Dawg]

Plane skids across ice at Hopkins
Monday, January 06, 2003

CLEVELAND -- A Continental regional jet has skidded across a runway at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport Monday afternoon.


The airport was closed briefly but has reopened. Travellers can expect delays.

The nose gear of the plane, flight 2051 inbound from Hartford, collapsed, but we have been told that there are no injuries.

We will update this story as more details are available.

Watch Channel 3 News at 6 p.m. for more details

 

[tarp]

Skidded long.

Went through localizer array for new Runway 6L and took out some ALS lights for 24R.

Question is did the nose wheel collapse before or after hitting the end of the runway? Pretty snowy picture.

http://www.newsnet5.com/

 

[BigFlyr]

By the looks of that picture, they did indeed use reverse thrust since they shut it down with the buckets deployed. You have to wonder though, if they popped them as an after thought... Woops! (no incrimination intended...)

 

[Loafman]

Radar and Lighting controlling Navaids..

Engineers are evaluating the problem, but an airport worker said that all NAVAIDS were damaged. They are the electronic navigational aids on the runway. They control the radar and lighting. It reportedly could take months to repair.

Why can't the news media ever make a technically accurate statement regarding aviation?

 

[Rank&File]

With the amount of snow shown in the picture, that place (CLE) looks like an accident waiting to happen...oh, we didn't have to wait. Anyway, I have no clue what happened; keep in mind that with those conditions it could have easily happened to any one of us (except for me, I'm furloughed). Let's keep the speculation down for now - I think the news media frequents boards like this sometimes.

 

[ultrarunner]

Don't have the plate handy...what's avail landing dist. beyond the GS? And doesn anyone happen to know the most recent RCR was?

 

[FL000]

I think the news media frequents boards like this sometimes.

I doubt that. If they did, they might actually get something right from time to time.

The scary thing is, it makes you wonder what other stories they are screwing up. With their record on aviation, you'd have to believe they're getting ALL their stories wrong.

 

[eaglefly]

CLE has at least one aircraft slide off the runways there EVERY winter. Its as predictable as death and taxes.

 

[Britpilot]

By the looks of that picture, they did indeed use reverse thrust since they shut it down with the buckets deployed. You have to wonder though, if they popped them as an after thought... Woops! (no incrimination intended...)

Dumb comment.
Normal procedure would be to deploy the reversers and reverse thrust on landing.
The anti skid system on this aircraft would actually do a better job of slowing the airplane with the reverse thrust assisting.
From experiance, on a slippery runway the combination of brakes and reverse thrust works well. Might I add that we do not know the circumstances of this incident and to speculate brings us to the level of the popular media.
Botom line here is all that got hurt was the loc antenna.
There but for the grace of god go I.

 

[EagleRJ]

CLE had something similar happen several years ago. A cargo pilot dragged his DC-3 through the localizer antenna and approach lights, then parked the plane and went home without saying anything to anyone. They were without a westbound precision approach for a while.

I haven't been to CLE in years. Do the east-west parallels have any ILS to the east?

 

[Rank&File]

Here are some pictures.

click here

 

[Britpilot]

CLE had something similar happen several years ago. A cargo pilot dragged his DC-3 through the localizer antenna and approach lights, then parked the plane and went home without saying anything to anyone. They were without a westbound precision approach for a while.

I haven't been to CLE in years. Do the east-west parallels have any ILS to the east?

6L is the new "short" runway. Both 6L and 6R have an ILS.
I too remember when the DC-3 hit the loc at CLE. It was winter of '99 and I was on the 1900 then. The only approach on the 23's then was the NDB, put you about a mile right of center line.

 

[FlyingSig]

The only approach on the 23's then was the NDB, put you about a mile right of center line.

That'd be tough nowdays seeing how NDB's got yanked out of the ops specs..... I remember that too (only I remember saying thank God I'm in IAH and don't have to shoot a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed NDB every other leg)

 

[KigAir]

Who picks up the tab for the damage? Airline, Airport, Insurance??

 

[Mickey]

It looks like they were only using flaps 22 and not 45. This makes for a very different landing. A lot more floating.

 

[Sierra-Hotel]

Flaps

I sure one of the pilots who fly ERJs could answer this better,but I think they have to use Flaps 22 on CAT II approaches.....something about better go-around performance

 

[Mickey]

I don't know the info on the Cat II flap configuration but, if they were landing on 6L it is a CAT I 6800' x 150' with a slight upslope.

 

[IAHERJ]

At Continental Express, all Cat II landings have to be performed at flaps 22. I don't know if this was a cat II landing or even if that runway is equiped for cat II (don't think it is). A missed approach on a cat II will result in the wheels touching the ground sometimes depending on how quickly you get the nose pitched up. A flaps 22 landing insures that the nose will already be up at least 2 degrees the whole time and probably a bit more depending on weight and speed.

Cleveland does indeed see at least 1 aircraft per year go off the end. Delta, American and Continental have all run MD-80's off in the past 4 years. The ERJ has no auto-brakes and reverse and anti-skid are a must for CLE in the winter months. I've flown through 2 of CLE's crazy winter storms in December and I can tell you it is dicy in fair to poor braking conditions. Then you have to find your way up to the terminal and hope the brakes work at the gate so you don't put the nose through terninal C or D.

 

[EagleRJ]

The NTSB has some interesting details in their preliminary report about this overrun accident:

[http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030109X00039&key=1]

The aircraft touched down with 1770' of runway remaining, at an airspeed of 150 KIAS. When it was 270' from the end of the runway, it was still going 100 KIAS.

This was a tricky approach; right at minimums into a 6800' runway with a gusty direct crosswind. This should remind all of us that we should never be too proud to go around!

 

[ultrarunner]

The NTSB has some interesting details in their preliminary report about this overrun accident:

[http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20030109X00039&key=1]

The aircraft touched down with 1770' of runway remaining, at an airspeed of 150 KIAS. When it was 270' from the end of the runway, it was still going 100 KIAS.

Yes, a tricky approach indeed. But in this case, the 5000 feet of runway the pilot left behind did no good.

With the preliminary data, what occured is what would be expected.

 

[Jump Pilot]

It appears a "Tapely" reading is some sort of traction measurement. Is a higher or lower number better?

 

[Fitzy]

EagleRJ-

Great comment, "don't be too proud to go around", that attitude will make you an old rich Pilot, if your not already!!!!

peace my fellow "bad timers"

 

[EagleRJ]

Yes, Tapley meters are commonly used to judge braking action. I don't have the breakdown in front of me, but around 30 would be fair, and 15 would be poor. A Tapley of 60 is very good, akin to dry concrete. The runway had been broomed, and chemically deiced, so it was in good shape.

 

[HighSpeed]

Suen1843,

Not exactly. If you read the weather around the time of the incident off of the NTSB report, the visability was only 1/2 mile.

When your moving that fast, its gets a little tough when the visability is so low to see exactly how much runway is remaining. Im gonna also venture a guess that the runway distance signs were obscured in snow as well.

On a clear day, I'm pretty confident that this professional flight crew would not have landed so far down the runway.

 

[flx757]

A Tapley of 60 is very good, akin to dry concrete. The runway had been broomed, and chemically deiced, so it was in good shape.

This is a true statement, as of 1147, one hour prior to the accident. However, the wx was deteriorating. The METAR from 1051 shows 1 1/2 miles in light snow. The METAR from 1151 shows 3/4 mi in snow and blowing snow, and at 1242 it was down to 1/2 mi in snow and blowing snow. The Tapleys taken at 1259, 10 minutes after the accident, show readings of between 25 and 30 on all areas of the runway. I think the runway, at the time of the accident, was not "in good shape". The conditions were probably closer to those indicated by Tapleys of 25-30, than to those indicated by Tapleys of 60.

Obvisously though, the last available infomation to the crew was the Tapley readings of 60,60 and 60, which led them to believe the runway was "in good shape". They may or may not have had the most current METAR from 1242, and may have been going on the 1151 wx. HighSpeed's statements about the visibility issue are valid. However, I have to believe that if I still haven't touched down several seconds after breaking out on a low approach that I would be aware that significant runway was now behind me.

It is also a valid statement that on a clear day, this crew would likely not have landed so far down the runway. But, it was not a clear day when everything was good. It was a day when the wx had deteriorated to minimums; with strong, gusty crosswinds; and runway conditions that had also deteriorated to that well below what the crew had been advised. Combine this with a touchdown at excessive speed well down the runway, and you have enough links in the chain present to result in an accident.