ERAU and Jet Training

[jaybird]

I recently recieved this survey in my box at work:

The University is investigating the feasability of bringing a jet aircraft into the training mix. The a/c would be a twin jet of the variety offered by Eclipse Jet. The a/c would be used in a program leading to the Private/Comm/Inst/ME ratings. The program envisioned using two a/c the 172 and the Eclipse Jet supported by highly sophisticated Level 6 FTD's. Some times are then broken down for the new course to be 190 hours when all rating are completed. Where as the current time is about 215 hours for all ratings. The anticipated cost of the jet program will be $41,000 with 70 hours in the jet.

I would like to hear opinions on this one. I think it should be in YGBSM.

 

[bobbysamd]

Riddle jets

I was an instructor at Riddle-Prescott from late '88-mid '91. I know how Riddle operates. Great cutting-edge idea, but I can see it now. As always - too many students, not enough
airplane(s). I can also visualize the political battles over which instructors will be assigned to the program. And all the hard feelings. Don't forget, too, the layers of training manager bureaucracy.

Once again, great idea, but .... rotsa ruck.

 

[banned username 2]

I have to agree with Bob.... Just like the 727 sims that they sell to the students.... Their money would be better spent getting more multi-time or something other than sitting side saddle in an old 727 sim....

Gotta crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run.... Lets worry about getting the basics mastered before worrying about flying jets at 100 hours TT.....

And before you start flaming... I went to ERAU and am an Alumni...

 

[ShawnC]

I like the way that Prudue gives out Jet time is better (only heard about it), the top 5% of the students in the flight program get to fly the president of the school around in his jet.

 

[Bluto]

Falcon Capt,
While, in retrospect, my 727 sim money could have been better spent on multi time, I don't think it was a waste. Around 42 hours or so of Multi for what I paid, come to think of it. I feel the 727 course was valuable. We learned airline flow/checklist procedures and it was fun. Now, if I had it to do again, I would probably have saved that money towards a 737 type, or something of that nature. In short, I agree that the money could have been better spent elsewhere, however I don't think it was a waste of time or money.

p.s. I think the primary jet training idea is cutting edge, but for now, will probably cost a great deal more than it is worth.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flows

You don't need a 727 sim to teach the concept of flows. Flows were ingrained in us at Riddle. We had flows for the 172 and for the Seminoles. Seminoles were laid out especially well for flows. I remember the Seminole flow to this day. It was great training. People who went on to Horizon commented at how remarkably similar our Riddle flows were to their airline's.

Of course, jet time looks great in a 250-hour logbook, but it is what it is. Of course, it is good experience, but only looks gaudy in a 250-hour logbook. It'll give you something to talk about at the interview. Total time and, once again, guys 'n gals, MULTI PIC time, gets you TO the interview.

 

[banned username 2]

I agree with Bob completely....

Jet Time when you have 200 TT is merely a novelty.... Without some PIC (especially Multi-PIC) it isn't inherently of much value in itself....

Kinda like the guys that have 1,000 hours in a 172 and go buy a Citation Type Rating.... then can't figure out why they STILL can't get a jet job.... There is no substitue for experience....

 

[FlyingSig]

Re: Flows

Flows were ingrained in us at Riddle.

The only flow I remember at Riddle was what came out of the tap at the Deck and Point Break.

 

[ShawnC]

Re: Re: Flows

The only flow I remember at Riddle was what came out of the tap at the Deck and Point Break.

The one flow everyone probally remebers is the raping you for cash that Riddle pulls. $45/hr for an instructer that they pay $12.50, all the other staff there is minimum wage, along with the fact that alot of the maitnece is done by the A&P students.

 

[banned username 2]

When I was at ERAU I was paying $50/hr for a C-172 and $25/hr for the instructor... The Seminole was $90/hr and $25 for the instructor.... This was back in 88-90.... back then FBO's were only marginally cheaper (a couple bucks at most)... the ERAU rates were pretty reasonable back then.....

 

[kilomike]

Riddle Jets

I am an ERAU grad. I find the idea of using jets in that manner of training impractical. However, I do not object to doing the training the normal way and then having an elective course in the senior year for a Citation type rating for those who wish to do so.

 

[Cornelius]

Its confession time, I went to ERAU and graduated 1999. When I look at the rates I paid for the CFI and AC rental I think it was quite a good deal. Soon after I graduated I went out west to Califorrinia and instructed for a year and half. The rates out there were a lot more than ERAU when I was there from 95 to 99. Of course, things may be different now and much more expensive. I feel I got my moneys worth from Pvt ASEL to CFI ASELIA. It is much more expensive now.

 

[FLYnMONKEYS]

Waste of time and money. The only reason they would get a jet at Riddle is so that the loser lifers can get a chance to fly jets. It always made me laugh how some of the "faculty" instructors swaggered around the flight line like some aviation gods. Big fish, little pond. BTW it also used to piss me off how they would ALWAYS tack on .3 oral after every flight. But imagine the great stories they can tell, "There I was in a C172 the wind was over 15kts................................."

 

[ShawnC]

.3 oral, yeah that is pointless most of the instructors for private for the oral pretty much sign you logbook tell you wether or not you completed a lesson, then its time to disappear.

 

[bobbysamd]

ERAU Oral

We could charge only .2 oral. I did spend the time with my students after the flight.

By the way, don't forget how some Riddle instructors piled on XT, whether or not their students needed it. All it took was an XT slip and a short walk to your Training Manager's office.

If Riddle wants to start up a jet program, I would agree with kilomike. Make it an elective and make it mean something, i.e. giving the student training that results in a type rating. You can set up a type rating course under Part 141. They could teach the ground school for the jet on campus. Do the student a favor. The type would transfer to the student's ATP after he/she takes that practical.

 

[banned username 2]

Here's my thoughts on this...

Instead of doing Jet training at ERAU.... have the students do ALL training after their Private in the twin (Duchess, Seminole, C-340, etc...)... The added cost of this would probably equate to what the jet course would cost anyhow...

Students would then graduate Riddle with over 125 hours of multi-time (over the magic 100 hours a lot of insurance companies require for flying twins). I think this emphasis on multi training would be of much greater and practical value to the students.

Odds are a Riddle student isn't going to be going right into a jet or even a turbo-prop right after graduation.... But they will probably be a CFI and have the opportunity to try and get some twin time... They probably won't fly a jet until a couple years down the road... by that time they will need to be retrained anyhow (my thoughts are the same about the 727 sim time they sell).... So in essence, their jet training was a waste of money...

Spend their money on the twin time, it would be more valuable in their early career as they get started in the industry.... Also change the ciriculum to have students go from Private all the way through CFI, CFI-I & CFI-ME as part of the Bachelor of Aeronautical Science Program.... These are more valuable right out of school....

Later down the road, your employers will pay for your jet training and type ratings.... I haven't paid a penny for training or to fly since I left Riddle back in '90....

Just my $0.02 for whatever it is worth!

Good Luck!