Entry Level King Air Position

[caseyd]

I can see your point, and I agree with the concept. However, a C90B flies like a Baron, only easier...500 turbine and multi is plenty IMHO...I know very competent people who flew 90s with less than that.

At risk of repeating what others have written, my only concern with upgrading anyone to the left seat, regardless of TT or time in type is their decision making. 200 observed that chimps can drive operate the equipment and he is correct. He questioned decision making under pressure and that is the real issue. When I was much younger I upgraded in a BAC 1-11. Though I had 5000 hours at the time, I learned more about flying, myself and the burdens of command over the next two years that I ever thought possible. Decision I nearly screamed at my old Captains, because they looked so obvious to me, suddenly seemed less clear. I know your right, the planes are easy to fly. It's the decision making that originally prompted me to challenge the originator of this thread who indicated that candidates need only to meet his insurance minimums to be considered. While I'm certain that is not his only requirement, it looked like a good point to enbark upon a discussion, and so we have.
Regards,
caseyd

 

[Lead Sled]

It's not that 1,500 hour pilots can't handle the "control manipulation part" of flying, they certainly can. The issue is one of depth, not breath of knowledge. Pilots in this position (and every one of us old farts have been there) have a broad range of knowledge, it often just doesn't run very deep. That's what experience does - deepens your knowledge and understanding. You don’t manipulate the controls “better”, you just fly “smarter”.

I only earn my money on those very infrequent days that I have to tell my boss "no". When the weather is good and when the equipment is operating correctly it doesn't take much of a pilot to do my job. It's when we have to deal with "difficult" weather, "belligerant" equipment, and/or "challenging" airports that I earn my money. In other words, I get paid to say "no". However, they expect me to have the skill and experience to only say "no" when it is the only safe option. Inexperienced pilots get into trouble when they say "no" and it wasn't necessary or when they don't say "no" when it was. Can a 1,500 hour pilot operate to those standards? Of course some can and of course some can't. However, the same could be said for pilots of every experience level. Personally, the way I would handle a 1,500 hour King Air pilot is quite simple - would I allow a family member to fly with him or her? Could I put a son or daughter, a grandson or daughter on their airplane and walk away and not worry. I have known some pilots that I could do that with and some that I couldn't. Some of those pilots had around 1,500 hours, some had over 10,000.

'Sled

 

[psysicx]

There is an operator in Socal that hires CJ PICs with 1500 hrs.

 

[OleGuy]

I am a g-streamer at pinnacle and I know now that I have enough experience at 450 hours to captain any jet in the world.

The people with their useless experience rest their case.

 

[HMR]

Still a bit low to think someone at 1500TT can be "insurable" on a brand new C90B but then again who knows..

I was put into the left seat of a brand new (70hrs on the hobbs) BE20 with 1300TT/500Multi/ZERO Turbine. It was single pilot PT135 ops. Today, if a pilot with those same times was going to fly my mother, I'd say "NO (edit) WAY"! I completely agree with the depth vs. breadth of knowledge argument. Flying the plane is NO problem for a competent, low-time pilot. The King Air really is a big Duchess. It was when I started doing the ski-country airports when the wx was down or dodging CB's in Texas that I realised how shallow my knowledge was/is.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Case,

Sir, I respectfully disagree with you. I flew 310’s over the Rockies at 19 single pilot, and I’ll have 3 ATP’s (FAA, CAA and JAA) at 23.

I will however agree with you, that the only thing I have really learned so far, is that I still have a lot to learn, that’s why I’m always open minded to listen and learn from people such as yourself.

It’s not a big deal to fly a -200 indeed. It’s all about decision making skills, and flying a 310 for a while single pilot and upgrade to a king air after a while is a good step do develop such skills. So yes, I do think that I’m qualified enough to make command decisions in a BE-200.



My boss trusts me, so does his insurance company..

Don’t forget that there are “kids” with 600 hours flying RJ’s this summer to Newark with your kids in the back.

Yours,
FD

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Also, “5000 hours total time” doesn’t make good pilots.. I fly coast to coast, Mexico, Canada and Europe trips regularly. I would say that those experiences are way better compared to crop dusting for 2000 hours to develop good decision making skills.

Regards,
FD

 

[caseyd]

Also, “5000 hours total time” doesn’t make good pilots.. I fly coast to coast, Mexico, Canada and Europe trips regularly. I would say that those experiences are way better compared to crop dusting for 2000 hours to develop good decision making skills.

Regards,
FD

FD,
I meant my comments to be taken in the widest context. You and others may be exceptional. I'm positive that some are capable of risk management before most. While the typical corp/frac/121/pleasure/helo pilot has many tasks, risk management is what the Captain's inflight job is all about. Improperly done, nothing else matters. Ergo...my concern when an employer seems to set as their guiding requirement, the ability to meet minimum insurance standards.

I'm sure the employer who initiated this thread has other standards and I do not intend this discussion to imply otherwise.

Lastly, it is worth us all focusing upon the most significant tie which binds us all together. That is the willingness to take on responsibility. Who amongst us professionals has not been at a party where a guest, when learning our profession, has not heard these words...I'd never want that responsibility. But we all shoulder it without a thought. That's fine but we should also remember that what we do is critical. The decisions we make, without consideration of impact, have mortal implication to our passengers. And I think we should credit ourselves for that reality. What you and others do is remarkable.

Off my box now.

Respectfully,
caseyd

 

[bigD]

Case,

Sir, I respectfully disagree with you. I flew 310’s over the Rockies at 19 single pilot, and I’ll have 3 ATP’s (FAA, CAA and JAA) at 23.

I will however agree with you, that the only thing I have really learned so far, is that I still have a lot to learn, that’s why I’m always open minded to listen and learn from people such as yourself.

It’s not a big deal to fly a -200 indeed. It’s all about decision making skills, and flying a 310 for a while single pilot and upgrade to a king air after a while is a good step do develop such skills. So yes, I do think that I’m qualified enough to make command decisions in a BE-200.



My boss trusts me, so does his insurance company..

Don’t forget that there are “kids” with 600 hours flying RJ’s this summer to Newark with your kids in the back.

Yours,
FD

First of all, we're talking about making command decisions, and those 600 hour wonder pilots in the RJ aren't making them. If there were two 600 hour wonder pilots flying the plane, then I'd worry!

Of course your boss and insurance companies trust you. Otherwise you wouldn't be flying for them. It also makes sense that you feel you're capable of making command decisions in the 200, otherwise I'd hope you wouldn't fly either. Hell, I fly a plane with a gross weight half that of the 200, and I still feel somewhat like a baby taking his first real steps. I have a lot to learn.

The issue raised by the thread is whether or not the insurance companies (or your boss, for that matter) are underestimating the experience required to make command decisions in a plane like the 200, and I tend to think that *most* 1500 hours pilots lack the breadth of experience to do so. Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you as a pilot - I said *most*. I know nothing of your experience as a pilot other than your time in the 310, which is indeed good time.

But I also feel your age and your future ATP's are irrelevant, as neither indicate anything about experience, other than showing that you have 1500 hours sitting in an airplane, and you have little memory of the 80's.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Heck, I even have little memory about yesterday

FD

 

[bigD]

Heh! Join the club!

 

[HMR]

Hell, I fly a plane with a gross weight half that of the 200, and I still feel somewhat like a baby taking his first real steps. I have a lot to learn.

I think I've told you this a few times already: your twin cessna is muuuuch harder to fly than a BE20. I'd fly with a guy who's been knocking around single pilot in a C340/414/421 any day!

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Agree wit HMR.. The 310 was a lot harder to fly.. It will make you a better pilot

FD

 

[350DRIVER]

The 310 is a lot harder to fly?!?!. Jee wizzz, I must have missed something back when I started out in the twins. I guess this is why it is much easier to obtain insurance at lower flight times in a 310 versus that of a multi-engine turboprop...(naww, couldn't be). I knew I missed something somewhere a long the lines. This now all makes sense, much thanks to the above posters for setting some of us straight!!

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[IP076]

Just wanted to take a minute and say....

Welcome back Top Gun Mav.....

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