Entering a spin from a power-off stall???

[WestHouston]

I'm in a 152 with a student doing stalls. I have them do a power-off stall, dirty, and the plane drops the left wing an starts to roll into a spin to the left. I take the controls and recover. I tell the student "how the hell do you get into a spin from a power off stall?" So I take the controls to demonstrate the proper technique. IT HAPPENS AGAIN! Spin to the left, with 30 degrees flaps. When I was approaching stall, the warning horn was going off, but no buffet no shudder, and no sudden drop in the nose.

I decided to investigate. I put it in slow flight and backed off the power just enough to teeter on the verge of a stall, as it stalls all that happens is an EXTREMELY slow pitch-forward moment, like in a rocking chair, and then the bottom drops out and it spins.

Has anyone experienced anything like this in a C152 before? I thought maybe we had a far aft CG, but the W&B is good, even forward a bit as the student I was with is a short female with the seat all the way forward and sitting on two pads.

I'd like to find out why this is happening. I don't want any of my pre-private students to fly the aircraft until I do. Thanks!

 

[ekuflyer]

Have the flaps checked. Maybe they are not symmetrically deploying. Is it doing the same thing clean? Maybe the plane has been damaged/twisted somehow. Were you coordinated when it happened? Maybe the rudder is out of rig.

Just my 2 cents

 

[pblind]

Sounds like the flaps are out of rig. Happened to me before.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Squawk the mechanic.

 

[socal_pilot]

We just had the same exact problem in one of our 152's. The flaps were out of rig a little and they replaced the flap motor, it fixed the problem.

 

[nosehair]

Thank you for your EverDay Real-Life Instructing Report.

Any readers here still opposed to spin training for students?

 

[ALIMBO]

I wish they would train us in them but I guess once I get my CFI ill get to do it.

 

[CFIcare]

Likely the rudder/flaps are slightly asymmetrical. Any time you are uncoordinated at the critical AOA, you'll initiate a spin regardless of power off/on.

I always demo-ed spins power off at first, as the entry was slightly less abrupt. It spins easier to the left in a 152 because the spinning prop helps in that direction.

To the right it's impossible as far as I know, to get it in a steady state spin (as in more that 3 turns) I went out repeatedly, with different fuel configurations, in attempt to get established to the right, and it always goes steep spiral whether you cross control, choke the crap out of it, etc. The prop counters the rightward rotation in this case and it literally will recover itself if you just let go. Fat guy on the right doesn't even seem to matter. Too close to the spin axis.

Good to see that you are actually doing spins with students. I used to show them, enforce that they are not to take flight school airplanes out to to this unsupervised, and then I'd set them up with an aerobatic instructor in a Citabria if they wanted to explore further...

 

[pilotx86]

uhm....the answer is simple..its a freakin 152....lol! J/K

the plane is probably twisted, too many hard student landings, excessive G loads from botched maneuvers bending the wings, flaps are not extended symmetrically, inclinometer not perfectly centered, rudder out of rig, etc..good luck

 

[WestHouston]

the plane is probably twisted

Always good words to hear...

 

[nosehair]

I wish they would train us in them but I guess once I get my CFI ill get to do it.

You have the right to require your instructor to train you in spin entry, recovery, and avoidance of spins.

It is his/her obligation .

 

[transampilot]

Had an airplane that had the angle of incidence on the wings adjusted so that it would fly straight, that would do the same thing. Some of the Eclipse 500's that I fly now have tabs on the flaps to make them fly straight as well I wonder if with the stall protection disabled if it would want to spin. One thing that used to help my student's especially with poer on stalls when the pitch angle is high up, look out the side windows and orient the wing with a road or terrain feature if you keep it in the same spot on the window during the stall you are coordinated. If it still spins then you know it's not the inclinometer.

 

[The_Russian]

Thank you for your EverDay Real-Life Instructing Report.

Any readers here still opposed to spin training for students?

I feel that spins and unusual attitudes should be enforced throughout all phases of flight training. There are too many pilots out there that have a fear of exceeding the normal flight regimes. Should the aircraft get in an unusual attitude or spin by their command or not, they need to be confident so that they may recover from the situation quickly.

 

[bugchaser]

I think it is unbelievable that people are not being taught the basics anymore. All students should be at least exposed to basic spin entry and recovery. Slips and skids up to the stall and recovery from incipient spins are basic skills that will make everyone a better pilot. There are many, many pilots out there that have never been anywhere close to the edge of the performance envelope. As an instructor, you owe it to yourself and your students to be comfortable and competent in these areas. If you are the least bit uncertain or unsure about spinning a 152, you better get some help with that.

 

[sqwkvfr]

You have the right to require your instructor to train you in spin entry, recovery, and avoidance of spins.

It is his/her obligation .

I think he was talking about doing a full spin and recovery.

 

[sqwkvfr]

If it still spins then you know it's not the inclinometer.

The inclinometer is a worthless tool for doing stalls.....eyes should always be out the window.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I tell the student "how the hell do you get into a spin from a power off stall?"

As others have said, it sounds like a rigging issue.

Now, if you want to know how to SNAP-ROLL a 152 out of a power-off, full-flap stall, I had a student teach me that once.

Naturally, I was in the "classic flight instructor position"--feet crossed, left arm hanging behind the student's seat...but, quick reflexes prevailed, and I managed to promptly arrest the maneuver--at about 160 degrees of bank. :0

It's the only time I can honestly say that a student caught me completely off-guard.

Fly safe!

David

 

[AC560]

Any readers here still opposed to spin training for students?

Spin training is highly over rated. 80% of all spin incidents occur at 1000' or less. Most aircraft require 1000' plus to recover. Only 10% of accidents are the result of spins. People get far to excited about spin training in my opinion, while a little spin awareness never hurt anyone I don't see it being that valuable. For the inevitable response, I didn't say useless, I said not that valuable.

Doing stalls with different weight/CG configurations is probably more beneficial. Not as sexy as spins, but something which probably would teach a student something useful which they are more likely to encounter.

 

[CFIcare]

Fact is, a stall in any configuration can and will turn into an incipient spin if the stalled condition is aggravated by being uncoordinated. Agreed, that recognizing the onset of a stall in various configurations and attitudes is a great idea, and one that is not stressed enough.

Most teach a straight ahead power off stall with various flap settings and a power-on with a bank, simulating a takeoff because that's pretty much all the PTS asks for.

How many people teach trim stalls or accelerated stalls from a steep turn? Not teaching the spin recovery is assuming that your student will always react promptly and correctly at the first onset of the stall. What if they don't, or what if they are surprised by the stall for some reason and unable to recover before it goes incipient spin? You can't hide the fact that spins occur on the other side of that line, and not knowing what to do because you were only taught UP to the line, but not OVER it, is wrong in my opinion.

When I was a CFI, there were no less than 5 accidents at my home airport and neighboring ones, in everything from 152s to Navajos, caused by stall/spin on takeoff and stall/spin on a base to final cheated overshoot.

True it takes 600-800 feet to recover and that's from a spin you are ready for. Spins close to the ground are often unrecoverable and that's why stall avoidance and recognition of the first onset in different attitudes and configurations should be taught.

However stall/spins happen at altitude too where recovery permits. Often its an IFR/ spacial disorientation scenario. With training, the spin can be recognized and recovered the same way as when you are visual.

John F. Kennedy Jr's accident was a tragic example , but unfortunately it happens every day and never makes the news.

 

[AC560]

However stall/spins happen at altitude too where recovery permits. Often its an IFR/ spacial disorientation scenario. With training, the spin can be recognized and recovered the same way as when you are visual.

Anyone who can recognize and recover a spin in the clouds probably has enough training not to get into one in the first place.

I would hazard a guess the 20% of spins which do occur +1000' are probably 90% the result of training incidents with a CFI.