Entering a spin from a power-off stall???

[nosehair]

Anyone who can recognize and recover a spin in the clouds probably has enough training not to get into one in the first place.

"probably" is the operative word, here.

Do you want to fly with a pilot who has been certificated because he "probably" can recover the airplane "IF", you know, the Big If that circles 'round back in everybody's mind, 'cept maybe you,..'if' something unusual happens. Do you?

I would hazard a guess the 20% of spins which do occur +1000' are probably 90% the result of training incidents with a CFI.

Then that's where more training is needed, Sir.

When I instructed fixed/wing for the Army, we did spins. The student demonstrated a 3 turn precision spin entry and recovery prior to solo on a pre-solo checkride. The Army Aviation School did not have spin accidents as a result of training. Because spin training was an intrgal part of stall training.

Spin accidents occur in training because current flight instructor get a couple of demo spins and get signed off. Spins are not being trained - that's why the accidents are occuring - - Duh!

And anyway, you miss the point. It isn't about being able to recover in less than 1000'. It's about being able to PREVENT the airplane fron going beyond a 90 degree roll in an upset. That's what you can get a handle on when you are proficient at spins.

When you are proficient at spin entry, recovery and prevention, you won't get into that base-to-final entry to begin with. ...
...or, if you're feelin' sassy, you might do a spin-roll-turn in that base-to-final turn 'cause you can.

Thass what I'm tawkin' bout.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Did you check the Nut behind the yoke ? Sometimes it can get loose and surely cause some problems....

 

[AC560]

"probably" is the operative word, here.

Yes it is. Because in the clouds by the time you figure out what the problem is you are probably going to be in a spiral and the wings are coming off before you figure out what the problem is.

Do you want to fly with a pilot who has been certificated because he "probably" can recover the airplane "IF", you know, the Big If that circles 'round back in everybody's mind, 'cept maybe you,..'if' something unusual happens. Do you?

Given that generally when I fly in the backseat with other pilots it is in a rather large commercial aircraft and I can't seem to recall an incident of one crashing because of an inadvertent spin I am not overly concerned.

I am also probably guessing that a 747 isn't going to snap out of a 3 turn spin regardless of the level of training the pilots have.

And anyway, you miss the point. It isn't about being able to recover in less than 1000'. It's about being able to PREVENT the airplane fron going beyond a 90 degree roll in an upset.

If the goal is prevention and not recovery then teaching not to stall an aircraft achieves the same result.

Is their value from spin training, there is value in all training. Do I think it is something which needs to be put back into part 61; no.

 

[flyguy75000]

I tell the student "how the hell do you get into a spin from a power off stall?"

Professionalism at its finest. As boring as it is, you may want to brush up on the F.O.I. while your plane is down for maintanence, champ!

 

[Tired Soul]

That plane is crooked or your student is crooked.
Used to fly a 152 that would always go left.
Only cross controlling would keep it straight in a power off stall.
Had a student put me inverted in that one.
Same school, different plane a 150 this time.
Cutest little ugly duckling, would only climb at one speed, 55mph.
Vx and Vy would be theoretical knowledge only for students on that plane. Everything would happen at such a sedate pace you could read a book while doing manoevers. One student found the "sweet spot". Doing power off stalls for the 100th time that week, I was way too relaxed, mushing along on the stall horn it just when SNAP and here we are upside down with full rattling flaps. Still don't know what that magic combination was, that plane never did it before and never did it again afterwards.

 

[WestHouston]

Professionalism at its finest. As boring as it is, you may want to brush up on the F.O.I. while your plane is down for maintanence, champ!

Thanks Dad. A little presumptuous to criticize my professionalism without ever actually flying with me don't you think?

 

[nosehair]

Thanks Dad. A little presumptuous to criticize my professionalism without ever actually flying with me don't you think?

?? Not sure,..but just in case 'you're serious', Sir, your 'professionalisim' is judged the instant you appear; the instant you make eye contact, or speak, or write, or post on-line, or make any kind of impact on another.

Of course. what I post here isn't always what I would say to a student, but I must be aware that some on-line readers, including students, may see and think that.

 

[WestHouston]

?? Not sure,..but just in case 'you're serious', Sir, your 'professionalisim' is judged the instant you appear; the instant you make eye contact, or speak, or write, or post on-line, or make any kind of impact on another.

Of course. what I post here isn't always what I would say to a student, but I must be aware that some on-line readers, including students, may see and think that.

I understand your point. I just think it's an unnecessary comment. Unless the poster has flown with me and seen and heard what I said he/she has no context in which to base that quip on my professionalism. It serves no purpose other than to seem holier than thou. He is certainly allowed to make the comment as I am allowed not to appreciate it. He doesn't know me any more than I know him and therefore is in no position to discipline me. Anyway... the student is a great student and she will certainly be successful. Coincidentally, she's the same student that had the engine failure that I started the other thread about.

 

[flyguy75000]

I understand your point. I just think it's an unnecessary comment. Unless the poster has flown with me and seen and heard what I said he/she has no context in which to base that quip on my professionalism. It serves no purpose other than to seem holier than thou. He is certainly allowed to make the comment as I am allowed not to appreciate it. He doesn't know me any more than I know him and therefore is in no position to discipline me. Anyway... the student is a great student and she will certainly be successful. Coincidentally, she's the same student that had the engine failure that I started the other thread about.

Did i not quote directly what you told this board "you" said to your student?

All I am saying is there is no faster a way than to ruin your credibility and lose respect than to say ask your student "How the hell do you get into a spin from a power-off stall?" when the airplane isn't in the configuration you were expecting it to be in. It also goes to show your lack of awareness and being prepared for anything that a student or particular aircraft may throw at you. By the way, if you don't know how the airplane can get into a spin from a stall, I strongly suggest reviewing basic aerodynamics out of the Airplane Fying Handbook or any other publication which contains it.

I'm not sure what you mean about me trying to discipline you....just advising you that in the future, you may want to try a more professional approach to your students when they make a mistake. It will make it easier for them to accept your suggestions and corrections rather than making them feel foolish, which will cause most students to withdraw their complete attention and desire to learn from you.

Just trying to give you some constructive criticism my friend. Take it or leave it, just remember that when a pilot has nothing left to learn it's time to retire.

 

[flyguy75000]

I'm in a 152 with a student doing stalls. I have them do a power-off stall, dirty, and the plane drops the left wing an starts to roll into a spin to the left. I take the controls and recover. I tell the student "how the hell do you get into a spin from a power off stall?" So I take the controls to demonstrate the proper technique.

You did tell the student this, correct? If not...disregard my posts.

 

[blesko]

I tell the student "how the hell do you get into a spin from a power off stall?"

Probably shouldn't be swearing at the student....lacks of professionalism and perhaps its an inexperienced instructor that's teaching improperly.

 

[WestHouston]

You did tell the student this, correct? If not...disregard my posts.

I don't remember the exact words I used. I don't know if I said that or something similar or nothing at all. I know I thought it. I never said i know all there is to know. Where does it say in the POH that the aircraft will inter a spin from a coordinated power off stall in a specified configuration? This is a ridiculous conversation.

 

[nosehair]

Where does it say in the POH that the aircraft will inter a spin from a coordinated power off stall in a specified configuration?

Let the beatings continue...:smash:

 

[flyguy75000]

Where does it say in the POH that the aircraft will inter a spin from a coordinated power off stall in a specified configuration? This is a ridiculous conversation.

I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm trying to help you from experience, my friend.

Your last statement makes it much more clear. You were taught poorly yourself and don't quite have the "correlation" level of stalls, perhaps much more, down cold.

In all honesty, it probably isn't all your fault. This is what happens when the airlines start hiring at 500 hours, they get guys who were instructing for 6 months that didn't have time to become stronger instructors. It is a spiraling trend and even the FAA has noticed it. I thought I sucked as an instructor when I first started. I was another student who had come up in the great hiring wave of the late 90's-early 00's. I can't even remember a bunch of my instructors names....I just kept getting passed off beacuse the guy I had for 5 lessons got a job at XYZ regional. The time came for me to be a CFI, put in my summer of instructing (which I thought it to be more as paid time building), and guess what? Some ragheads changed the world as we know it 1 month after I found a job. CFI jobs became very difficult to obtain in the area I lived, there was no turnover because there was no airline hiring. And it forced everyone to become a better instructor, because there was always that fear of losing your job to someone who was better and knew more. The teaching part comes with time. Believe me, I ended up teaching for almost 3 years before the hiring lines opened back up. The knowledge base is something you have to have. And once you get to the instructing level, its on you to know it.

Instead of continuing the beatings like the last guy said, I can only advise you to do what I did.

Get the Airplane Flying Handbook, the Jeppesen Private Pilot Manual, Aviation Weather, Private Oral Exam guide, PTS.....and go through them thoroughly. Make your self detailed notes and review them constantly. I'd give my students homework from these books all the time, then I'd do the ground lesson covering that material they were supposed to have read. This let me know where they were in the rote-understanding-application-correlation stages and allowed me to do my job in making sure they could correlate the material they needed to know. Another thing, some instructors like to teach the bare minimum to help the student pass the check ride. Try to go beyond this, teach your students all you can from the required materials and from your own personal experiences to help your students become better and smarter airman.

I'd suggest reading the aerodynamics section of the AIRPLANE FLYING HANDBOOK, then the entire thing as soon as you can. I'm not talking about the Cessna POH. This is a publication produced by the FAA and can be found at your local pilot shop, or online. And if you go on to get your CFII or Multi, I'd again advise you to spend the 20 bucks on the Instrument Flying Handbook and Multi Engine Handbook, and put in some time reading them and taking thorough notes. Better yet, you may want to get them even if you are not going to get those instructor certificates, you'll only increase your own knowledge and you'll be a better pilot. Smarter instructors produce smarter pilots.

Not to mention all the regional captains that will thank you for making their babysitting jobs just a little bit easier because their 400 hr F/O's will know just a little more than the last bunch that came through.

Good Luck.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Sage advice, flyguy75000.

 

[NW_Pilot]

In my 150M, Power Off Clean or Dirty if entered coordinated You can hold the Yoke back to the stop and keep it there and it will be a very mild stall always strait very little rudder add about 1/2 to 3/4 left or right rudder that will be your direction of turn in a nice spin.

Funny to watch people do stalls in my plane 50% drop a wing or almost spin it first time or 2 as they are uncoordinated on entry.

Very Sensitive Rudder for a Buck Fifty also.

 

[CFIcare]

Flyguy75000,

I was coming up through the student/instructor ranks at exactly the same time. I also ended up being an instructor for 3 years and 2000 hours of dual given thanks to 9-11. You are right that it forced us to be better because our competition was furloughed airline guys hungry for a job and ready to pillage our potential new student base.

That said, for the benefit of the original poster WestHouston, I would highly recommend getting William Kershner's Student Pilot's Flight Manual. He was THE original authority on the subject of spin recovery back before there was much written on the subject. He did a lot of the research on the subject himself with his own airplane. He became known for his expertise of the subject because there was a knowledge gap developing in students and instructors at the time due to CFIs being afraid of spins and even stalls, abd not understanding the fundamentals of how and why they occur, then passing that misinformation on to students who later became CFIs.

The fact that you say, how can you enter a spin from a power off stall? shows that you need a bit more understanding of coordinated flight, and the particular handling characteristics of your particular aircraft at the edge of a stall.

After reading Kershner's book, I'd find an aerobatic instructor with something like a Decathlon or Citabria (since they are representative of the kind of airplanes you instruct in) and explore the different configurations and situations. An Extra 300 or Pitts would not be comparable to a 152 for the purposes that you are trying to achieve, other than to prove that the method is the same.

 

[WestHouston]

Sorry that I'm not up to the standard of you post 9-11 instructors, and I mean that. I've done all I can to explain and demostrate spins to students. I was not aware that being surprised by a spin constitutes a lack of instructional knowledge. Even though when I asked several examiners about this situation and they said it was odd, I shoud've known better if I were truly a good instructor. This is one of the reasons I am ready to leave instructing. Let the people that know all there is to know be the teachers. I still think it's funny that this whole debate started over my comment "how do you get into a spin from a power off stall". I think it was merely a comment that normally, one should not expect to find themselves on the verge of a spin every time they do a power off stall. Obviously I am very ill-advised on the subject and the sooner I can leave this profession the better as I am obviously dilluting the talent pool with unqualified pilots. Thanks for your help.

 

[CFIcare]

Okay,

You asked a question about something that you ought to know more about than you apparently do, as a CFI instructing others. That's okay. No new CFI is an expert on everything upon passing the checkride. You learn the most on the job while instructing, and while talking with other instructors. You should find the weak points in your understanding of subjects and strengthen them for the benefit of yourself and your students.

None of us ever claimed or insinuated that we "know everything." You asked for help, we answered and pointed you toward good resources to help. You are a new instructor and you are asking people with years of experience. If you choose to disregard what everyone had said, you certainly have that option.

However as professional pilots, the attitude we should have is to continually be learning and adding to our knowledge. Likewise we share what we know with others so that they can learn. Now you can take the information and resources that we pointed out to you and educate yourself further on the topic, or you can decide that none of us has a clue and that you know all you need to.

Just realize that part of your lack of understanding of the subject seems to be caused by the fact that you disagree with the answers.

 

[flyguy75000]

Sorry that I'm not up to the standard of you post 9-11 instructors, and I mean that. I've done all I can to explain and demostrate spins to students. I was not aware that being surprised by a spin constitutes a lack of instructional knowledge. Even though when I asked several examiners about this situation and they said it was odd, I shoud've known better if I were truly a good instructor. This is one of the reasons I am ready to leave instructing. Let the people that know all there is to know be the teachers. I still think it's funny that this whole debate started over my comment "how do you get into a spin from a power off stall". I think it was merely a comment that normally, one should not expect to find themselves on the verge of a spin every time they do a power off stall. Obviously I am very ill-advised on the subject and the sooner I can leave this profession the better as I am obviously dilluting the talent pool with unqualified pilots. Thanks for your help.

CFICare has hit the nail on the head. You don't like the answers you were given. You have a bad attitude, like most of the "Mommy says I'm special" kids entering the adult-era of their lives these days.

You sound like a big vag1na with all that whining............