Entering a spin from a power-off stall???

[sqwkvfr]

If it still spins then you know it's not the inclinometer.

The inclinometer is a worthless tool for doing stalls.....eyes should always be out the window.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I tell the student "how the hell do you get into a spin from a power off stall?"

As others have said, it sounds like a rigging issue.

Now, if you want to know how to SNAP-ROLL a 152 out of a power-off, full-flap stall, I had a student teach me that once.

Naturally, I was in the "classic flight instructor position"--feet crossed, left arm hanging behind the student's seat...but, quick reflexes prevailed, and I managed to promptly arrest the maneuver--at about 160 degrees of bank. :0

It's the only time I can honestly say that a student caught me completely off-guard.

Fly safe!

David

 

[AC560]

Any readers here still opposed to spin training for students?

Spin training is highly over rated. 80% of all spin incidents occur at 1000' or less. Most aircraft require 1000' plus to recover. Only 10% of accidents are the result of spins. People get far to excited about spin training in my opinion, while a little spin awareness never hurt anyone I don't see it being that valuable. For the inevitable response, I didn't say useless, I said not that valuable.

Doing stalls with different weight/CG configurations is probably more beneficial. Not as sexy as spins, but something which probably would teach a student something useful which they are more likely to encounter.

 

[CFIcare]

Fact is, a stall in any configuration can and will turn into an incipient spin if the stalled condition is aggravated by being uncoordinated. Agreed, that recognizing the onset of a stall in various configurations and attitudes is a great idea, and one that is not stressed enough.

Most teach a straight ahead power off stall with various flap settings and a power-on with a bank, simulating a takeoff because that's pretty much all the PTS asks for.

How many people teach trim stalls or accelerated stalls from a steep turn? Not teaching the spin recovery is assuming that your student will always react promptly and correctly at the first onset of the stall. What if they don't, or what if they are surprised by the stall for some reason and unable to recover before it goes incipient spin? You can't hide the fact that spins occur on the other side of that line, and not knowing what to do because you were only taught UP to the line, but not OVER it, is wrong in my opinion.

When I was a CFI, there were no less than 5 accidents at my home airport and neighboring ones, in everything from 152s to Navajos, caused by stall/spin on takeoff and stall/spin on a base to final cheated overshoot.

True it takes 600-800 feet to recover and that's from a spin you are ready for. Spins close to the ground are often unrecoverable and that's why stall avoidance and recognition of the first onset in different attitudes and configurations should be taught.

However stall/spins happen at altitude too where recovery permits. Often its an IFR/ spacial disorientation scenario. With training, the spin can be recognized and recovered the same way as when you are visual.

John F. Kennedy Jr's accident was a tragic example , but unfortunately it happens every day and never makes the news.

 

[AC560]

However stall/spins happen at altitude too where recovery permits. Often its an IFR/ spacial disorientation scenario. With training, the spin can be recognized and recovered the same way as when you are visual.

Anyone who can recognize and recover a spin in the clouds probably has enough training not to get into one in the first place.

I would hazard a guess the 20% of spins which do occur +1000' are probably 90% the result of training incidents with a CFI.

 

[nosehair]

Anyone who can recognize and recover a spin in the clouds probably has enough training not to get into one in the first place.

"probably" is the operative word, here.

Do you want to fly with a pilot who has been certificated because he "probably" can recover the airplane "IF", you know, the Big If that circles 'round back in everybody's mind, 'cept maybe you,..'if' something unusual happens. Do you?

I would hazard a guess the 20% of spins which do occur +1000' are probably 90% the result of training incidents with a CFI.

Then that's where more training is needed, Sir.

When I instructed fixed/wing for the Army, we did spins. The student demonstrated a 3 turn precision spin entry and recovery prior to solo on a pre-solo checkride. The Army Aviation School did not have spin accidents as a result of training. Because spin training was an intrgal part of stall training.

Spin accidents occur in training because current flight instructor get a couple of demo spins and get signed off. Spins are not being trained - that's why the accidents are occuring - - Duh!

And anyway, you miss the point. It isn't about being able to recover in less than 1000'. It's about being able to PREVENT the airplane fron going beyond a 90 degree roll in an upset. That's what you can get a handle on when you are proficient at spins.

When you are proficient at spin entry, recovery and prevention, you won't get into that base-to-final entry to begin with. ...
...or, if you're feelin' sassy, you might do a spin-roll-turn in that base-to-final turn 'cause you can.

Thass what I'm tawkin' bout.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

Did you check the Nut behind the yoke ? Sometimes it can get loose and surely cause some problems....

 

[AC560]

"probably" is the operative word, here.

Yes it is. Because in the clouds by the time you figure out what the problem is you are probably going to be in a spiral and the wings are coming off before you figure out what the problem is.

Do you want to fly with a pilot who has been certificated because he "probably" can recover the airplane "IF", you know, the Big If that circles 'round back in everybody's mind, 'cept maybe you,..'if' something unusual happens. Do you?

Given that generally when I fly in the backseat with other pilots it is in a rather large commercial aircraft and I can't seem to recall an incident of one crashing because of an inadvertent spin I am not overly concerned.

I am also probably guessing that a 747 isn't going to snap out of a 3 turn spin regardless of the level of training the pilots have.

And anyway, you miss the point. It isn't about being able to recover in less than 1000'. It's about being able to PREVENT the airplane fron going beyond a 90 degree roll in an upset.

If the goal is prevention and not recovery then teaching not to stall an aircraft achieves the same result.

Is their value from spin training, there is value in all training. Do I think it is something which needs to be put back into part 61; no.

 

[flyguy75000]

I tell the student "how the hell do you get into a spin from a power off stall?"

Professionalism at its finest. As boring as it is, you may want to brush up on the F.O.I. while your plane is down for maintanence, champ!

 

[Tired Soul]

That plane is crooked or your student is crooked.
Used to fly a 152 that would always go left.
Only cross controlling would keep it straight in a power off stall.
Had a student put me inverted in that one.
Same school, different plane a 150 this time.
Cutest little ugly duckling, would only climb at one speed, 55mph.
Vx and Vy would be theoretical knowledge only for students on that plane. Everything would happen at such a sedate pace you could read a book while doing manoevers. One student found the "sweet spot". Doing power off stalls for the 100th time that week, I was way too relaxed, mushing along on the stall horn it just when SNAP and here we are upside down with full rattling flaps. Still don't know what that magic combination was, that plane never did it before and never did it again afterwards.

 

[WestHouston]

Professionalism at its finest. As boring as it is, you may want to brush up on the F.O.I. while your plane is down for maintanence, champ!

Thanks Dad. A little presumptuous to criticize my professionalism without ever actually flying with me don't you think?

 

[nosehair]

Thanks Dad. A little presumptuous to criticize my professionalism without ever actually flying with me don't you think?

?? Not sure,..but just in case 'you're serious', Sir, your 'professionalisim' is judged the instant you appear; the instant you make eye contact, or speak, or write, or post on-line, or make any kind of impact on another.

Of course. what I post here isn't always what I would say to a student, but I must be aware that some on-line readers, including students, may see and think that.

 

[WestHouston]

?? Not sure,..but just in case 'you're serious', Sir, your 'professionalisim' is judged the instant you appear; the instant you make eye contact, or speak, or write, or post on-line, or make any kind of impact on another.

Of course. what I post here isn't always what I would say to a student, but I must be aware that some on-line readers, including students, may see and think that.

I understand your point. I just think it's an unnecessary comment. Unless the poster has flown with me and seen and heard what I said he/she has no context in which to base that quip on my professionalism. It serves no purpose other than to seem holier than thou. He is certainly allowed to make the comment as I am allowed not to appreciate it. He doesn't know me any more than I know him and therefore is in no position to discipline me. Anyway... the student is a great student and she will certainly be successful. Coincidentally, she's the same student that had the engine failure that I started the other thread about.

 

[flyguy75000]

I understand your point. I just think it's an unnecessary comment. Unless the poster has flown with me and seen and heard what I said he/she has no context in which to base that quip on my professionalism. It serves no purpose other than to seem holier than thou. He is certainly allowed to make the comment as I am allowed not to appreciate it. He doesn't know me any more than I know him and therefore is in no position to discipline me. Anyway... the student is a great student and she will certainly be successful. Coincidentally, she's the same student that had the engine failure that I started the other thread about.

Did i not quote directly what you told this board "you" said to your student?

All I am saying is there is no faster a way than to ruin your credibility and lose respect than to say ask your student "How the hell do you get into a spin from a power-off stall?" when the airplane isn't in the configuration you were expecting it to be in. It also goes to show your lack of awareness and being prepared for anything that a student or particular aircraft may throw at you. By the way, if you don't know how the airplane can get into a spin from a stall, I strongly suggest reviewing basic aerodynamics out of the Airplane Fying Handbook or any other publication which contains it.

I'm not sure what you mean about me trying to discipline you....just advising you that in the future, you may want to try a more professional approach to your students when they make a mistake. It will make it easier for them to accept your suggestions and corrections rather than making them feel foolish, which will cause most students to withdraw their complete attention and desire to learn from you.

Just trying to give you some constructive criticism my friend. Take it or leave it, just remember that when a pilot has nothing left to learn it's time to retire.

 

[flyguy75000]

I'm in a 152 with a student doing stalls. I have them do a power-off stall, dirty, and the plane drops the left wing an starts to roll into a spin to the left. I take the controls and recover. I tell the student "how the hell do you get into a spin from a power off stall?" So I take the controls to demonstrate the proper technique.

You did tell the student this, correct? If not...disregard my posts.