Enough!

[jetstream]

The events that have occured between Delta and Pinnacle should be a wake up call for all of us. If connection carriers and their pilots do not come up with a way to present a unified front to Delta and the other mainline carriers, this will only continue.

I have no doubt that the executives who run the legacy carriers look down their noses and laugh at us. They toss scraps from their tables, watch us fight over them, then get in their luxury cars and head for the country club.

I understand people being upset with the Pinnacle pilots over the TA vote. I don't like it either but they were between a rock and a hard place and whose to say what you or I would have done in the same situation.

As I've said before the real enemy in all of it is Delta.

Some how the leadership of these airlines need to unite and tell Delta that they won't be squeezed any more. How to do that I honestly don't know but they need to get together and find a way.

But its not up to them alone, we pilots must do the same thing. The current system is not working for us. We must find a new way of doing things.

I believe the following steps should be taken:

1. All regional pilots need to leave ALPA and start our own union. I have always felt that ALPA cannot fairly represent pilot groups at mainline carriers and regionals since the goals of the two are often at odds with one another.

2. The union for regional pilots should have a national senority list. If airline A tanks because it was mismanged then its pilots can find jobs with another regional who is hiring. They take their experience and go on the list wherever their national senority number puts them. This system of having to start over again at the bottom is insane. Where else in the business world do you see that a persons years of experience get erased just because they change companies to do the same job?

3. The regional pilots union should have a universal contract for all pilots regardlless of which airline they are working for. If pay and work rules are good for pilots at airline A, why would they not be good for a pilot at airline B?

4. Our benefits such as health care, retirement savings, etc, should be through the union and not the airline.

I believe it was Albert Einstein who said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".

I believe that is where we as regional pilots find ourselves now. The mainline carriers keep going around the circle and playing us against one another. In return we keep fighting amongst ourselves which is exactly what they want us to do.

I'm tired of being played by these guys.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

The events that have occured between Delta and Pinnacle should be a wake up call for all of us. If connection carriers and their pilots do not come up with a way to present a unified front to Delta and the other mainline carriers, this will only continue.

I have no doubt that the executives who run the legacy carriers look down their noses and laugh at us. They toss scraps from their tables, watch us fight over them, then get in their luxury cars and head for the country club.

I understand people being upset with the Pinnacle pilots over the TA vote. I don't like it either but they were between a rock and a hard place and whose to say what you or I would have done in the same situation.

As I've said before the real enemy in all of it is Delta.

Some how the leadership of these airlines need to unite and tell Delta that they won't be squeezed any more. How to do that I honestly don't know but they need to get together and find a way.

But its not up to them alone, we pilots must do the same thing. The current system is not working for us. We must find a new way of doing things.

I believe the following steps should be taken:

1. All regional pilots need to leave ALPA and start our own union. I have always felt that ALPA cannot fairly represent pilot groups at mainline carriers and regionals since the goals of the two are often at odds with one another.

2. The union for regional pilots should have a national senority list. If airline A tanks because it was mismanged then its pilots can find jobs with another regional who is hiring. They take their experience and go on the list wherever their national senority number puts them. This system of having to start over again at the bottom is insane. Where else in the business world do you see that a persons years of experience get erased just because they change companies to do the same job?

3. The regional pilots union should have a universal contract for all pilots regardlless of which airline they are working for. If pay and work rules are good for pilots at airline A, why would they not be good for a pilot at airline B?

4. Our benefits such as health care, retirement savings, etc, should be through the union and not the airline.

I believe it was Albert Einstein who said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".

I believe that is where we as regional pilots find ourselves now. The mainline carriers keep going around the circle and playing us against one another. In return we keep fighting amongst ourselves which is exactly what they want us to do.

I'm tired of being played by these guys.

1. Agreed. Although I am generally a strong supporter of ALPA, it is becoming apparent that the conflict between mainline and regional pilots is too much for the union to handle, and as such it would probably be best to split off.

2. A great pipe dream, but you will never get management to buy off on it. Why would they sign on to hire some 8-10 yr RJ captain at their respective payscale when they could just upgrade one of their own with less seniority (and correspondingly lower pay?).

3. This is probably the best idea here. 1 contract across the board eliminates the whipsaw, at least from the pilot group perspective. You would, however, have to get the other represented groups to agree to the same concept as well (flight attendants, mechanics, dispatchers, etc).

4. Not really neccessary, as these would be governed by the blanket CBA, so really it doesn't matter who pays/manages them, the company or the union.

Of course you would have to get everybody on board with it. Even 1 carrier (lets just call this mythical carrier Skywest ) not part of the new union will quickly become the majors 'favorite child'. In other words, an interesting idea, but could have some devasting consequences.

We, as regional pilots, must tread very carefully.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[pilotyip]

So how would this national seniority list work? I have been at ABC Airlines for 20 years, I am a Captain. ABC goes belly up. You work as a Captain at XYZ Airlines, do I get to kick you out of your seat if you have only been at your airline for 10 years?

 

[captainv]

The events that have occured between Delta and Pinnacle should be a wake up call for all of us. ...

I'm tired of being played by these guys.

Having gone through this already, courtesy of DAL, I sympathize. In time, though, I think you'll notice that the wake up call only comes when it's your airline that's being shut down. The other regionals are hoping you'll shut down and they'll get your 900s.

Think of this from the flip side. Why would Delta stop doing this? It's working out pretty well for them.

If you're tired of getting played by Delta, stop getting played. Your only way forward, whether you'll be on property when the dust settles or not, is to get out and start over somewhere else. Do it quickly, and you'll be senior to everyone who hangs around waiting "for something to happen."

Nothing is going to happen. Maybe PNCL will continue to operate with a massively reduced pilot group, which by the way makes them look really, really expensive - no matter what the new rates are - after you get rid of all those junior guys. Or maybe you'll shut down. You probably won't merge with anyone. Who's buying?

Personally, I think you'd be better served by accepting it's over and moving on. Doesn't matter why or how unfair it is or whose fault it is. Get another gig, hopefully at something better than a regional. Do it quickly - every guy who will eventually be laid off isn't going to wait until it happens.

Good luck.

 

[BUDDHA145]

So how would this national seniority list work? I have been at ABC Airlines for 20 years, I am a Captain. ABC goes belly up. You work as a Captain at XYZ Airlines, do I get to kick you out of your seat if you have only been at your airline for 10 years?

Here!! Here!!!
But we can all eat an orange.
http://www.operationorange.org/

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[jetstream]

So how would this national seniority list work? I have been at ABC Airlines for 20 years, I am a Captain. ABC goes belly up. You work as a Captain at XYZ Airlines, do I get to kick you out of your seat if you have only been at your airline for 10 years?

Your place on the national senority list would be determined by your date of hire at the regional for which you are working when it is enacted. If you change airlines you are inserted into that airlines list based on that. So yes you could bump someone out of a seat and someone could do it to you if they were to come to your airline. Cuts both ways.

One thing that would have to be decided, and I don't know where I would stand on this yet, is this. Would this system apply if a pilot switches airlines on his/her own volition or is forced out? But I'm inclined to think I would want it to work in both cases. This way, just like in other businesses, if we want to change employers we can do so without having to lose everything we've worked to accomplish. This would also be benefical if a pilot needed to relocate to another part of the country for some reason. Instead of having to commute, if a regional in that area is hiring, he /she could just change airlines and be closer to home.

In the business world if you decide to change employers to do the same kind of work, you just switch companies and take your experience and knowledge with you. You could either move up or down a little at the new company but would be pretty close to what you left. Why should we be so different.

The way we do things is antiquated. We need some new thinking. Time to get out of this box we've built around ourselves.

 

[BUDDHA145]

Well I don't care if you are chuck or sully. No one it's taking my job because they got an epiphany or a reality check on "how bad it's my company and this guys it's so good".... Sorry that is one of the most unfair things ever!!! I, you, him, us made a choice. Ill vote NO in a hart beep.


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[jetstream]

Well I don't care if you are chuck or sully. No one it's taking my job because they got an epiphany or a reality check on "how bad it's my company and this guys it's so good".... Sorry that is one of the most unfair things ever!!! I, you, him, us made a choice. Ill vote NO in a hart beep.


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I believe it is this type of thinking that has put us where we are.

 

[jetstream]

Having gone through this already, courtesy of DAL, I sympathize. In time, though, I think you'll notice that the wake up call only comes when it's your airline that's being shut down. The other regionals are hoping you'll shut down and they'll get your 900s.

Think of this from the flip side. Why would Delta stop doing this? It's working out pretty well for them.

If you're tired of getting played by Delta, stop getting played. Your only way forward, whether you'll be on property when the dust settles or not, is to get out and start over somewhere else. Do it quickly, and you'll be senior to everyone who hangs around waiting "for something to happen."

Nothing is going to happen. Maybe PNCL will continue to operate with a massively reduced pilot group, which by the way makes them look really, really expensive - no matter what the new rates are - after you get rid of all those junior guys. Or maybe you'll shut down. You probably won't merge with anyone. Who's buying?

Personally, I think you'd be better served by accepting it's over and moving on. Doesn't matter why or how unfair it is or whose fault it is. Get another gig, hopefully at something better than a regional. Do it quickly - every guy who will eventually be laid off isn't going to wait until it happens.

Good luck.

Just an FYI: I'm not at Pinnacle

 

[jetstream]

This would also do away with much of the bad blood that occurs between pilot groups as the result of mergers. We would not have to fight over developing a single CBA or mergining senority lists. Its already done.