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Engine Failure while Holding

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yeah lets FLY and worry about books, checklists, and other stuff once FLYING is done

Swissair learned that the hard way. Night electrical fire? Land? Not now, the book says we are overgross and that is prohibited

less bookee, more FLYEE FLYEE
 
satpak77 said:
yeah lets FLY and worry about books, checklists, and other stuff once FLYING is done

Swissair learned that the hard way. Night electrical fire? Land? Not now, the book says we are overgross and that is prohibited

less bookee, more FLYEE FLYEE
Those 121 airplanes are too complicated to do that. Memory items first, then QRH. You got two pilots and if you're lucky, maybe somebody typed in the plane is jumpseating and can lend a hand. In a two pilot aircraft using crm, the pilot flying isn't reading the QRH, the non-flying pilot is.

In a single pilot aircraft, like a Seneca or a Caravan, you don't have extra hands for reading a book on how to fly an airplane. You should know the how, what, where, when, why of what makes it go and what makes it stop.
 
FN FAL said:
Those 121 airplanes are too complicated to do that. Memory items first, then QRH. You got two pilots and if you're lucky, maybe somebody typed in the plane is jumpseating and can lend a hand. In a two pilot aircraft using crm, the pilot flying isn't reading the QRH, the non-flying pilot is.

In a single pilot aircraft, like a Seneca or a Caravan, you don't have extra hands for reading a book on how to fly an airplane. You should know the how, what, where, when, why of what makes it go and what makes it stop.

So why do they put those checklists in the manual?

The original question referred to being in a hold, NOT inside the FAF, and it was a simple engine failure, not fire, flood, locusts, or other calamity. Yes, an engine failure in a twin is an emergency, but if you can't fly a hold while managing an engine failure, you need more training.

On the other hand, if the airplane can't maintain altitude on one engine, THEN you have a situation where you need to get the memory items done, get yourself into a position to land ASAP, and deal with checklists at a more convenient time.

Remember...Aviate (Fly the airplane, deal with the failure), Navigate (stay within protected airspace...none of this does you any good if you become a CFIT statistic), and Communicate.

Fly safe!

David
 
uwochris said:
Hey guys,

Let's say you have been cleared to enter a hold, and just as you enter it (i.e. as you cross the beacon/VOR/etc), you experience an engine failure in a twin.

As I'm continuing the hold entry, Props & Throttles (mixtures maybe - depends on D. altitude) ...clean it up...decide from there. Do I feather? Do I need to? Is it a Fuel thing? Is it a legitimate failure? Can I maintain altitude on one engine? If so, great...if not, it's time to start talking some more.

IMHO

-mini
 
Can you take a vector? Whats the terrain like around you? In the midwest at 5000 feet is sure different than being in Idaho at 5000 below radar coverage.
 
Personally, I wouldn't continue to turn (especially depending on the direction of the turn, (i.e. into the critical engine). I'd get control first (even if it means level ing off for a sec and going through the mixture prop throt checklist), then declare an emergency immediately.


Airway
 
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As diplomatic as I can be.

Airway said:
Personally, I wouldn't continue to turn (especially depending on the direction of the turn, (i.e. into the critical engine). I'd get control first (even if it means level ing off for a sec and going through the mixture prop throt checklist), then declare an emergency immediately.


Airway

Listen my friend, lately everyone is pretty touchy around here, so I want to say right up front I'm not flaming you or trying to insult you or anything else.

But you should be able to make a turn into the dead engine with no problem.

It's much better to hold as published (stick to procedures) than to start improvising. There's a reason why you were assigned that position and direction of hold (terrain or traffic).

If you're not comfortable with turning into a dead engine then find someone who is and go practice it. It's a good confidence builder.

I've seen steep turns done (both directions) in a Seminole with one engine shutdown. Not a problem.

Good luck.
 
I agree with mar here. Under IMC you need to be prepared to continue flying whatever procedure you're flying. Turning the airplane (in either direction) is not really any more difficult than holding straight and level. You should have had to demonstrate this skill on your ME ride. Of course every situation is different, but in general you need to be mentally prepared to handle the emergency and continue with proper IFR procedures at the same time. You should train this way. It is bad news to develop an attitude than in case of engine failure you'll go straight ahead... what if it happens after takeoff and you have an obstacle DP? What if it happens doing a PT on an non-precision approach? Disregarding the IFR procedures could result in CFIT, or the abandonment of an approach that could have put you on the ground much sooner. Also, if you simply roll out on some random heading then you will quickly lose horizontal situational awareness.
 
Aviate: Continue to fly the freak'n airplane be doing what it takes to keep it flying - like running checklists, etc.
Navigate: Continue to fly your clearance, i.e. continue to hold, if you are able. If you can't, ask for something you can do.
Communicate: Once you got things settled down and under control it would be the perfect time to declare an emergency and be moved to the head of the line.

Gee, I believe I've heard that advise in the past. I works pretty much perfectly here. Keep things simple. Avoid paralysis by analysis.

Airway said:
Personally, I wouldn't continue to turn (especially depending on the direction of the turn, (i.e. into the critical engine).
Airway, I almost hate to ask this, but are you really an MEI? Heavens man, you're not teaching that to your students are you?

'Sled

[Note: That's it, no more Mr. Nice guy, I've got to change my avatar.]
 
Why would you continue to hold? Out of courtesy to the other people who do not have an emergency? Or just to give you something to do until the second engine went fubar?

Is it always smart to re-light a failed engine?

Would you shoot the ILS if the AWOS said visibility was 1/4?

What would you do after you got the failed engine relit and you switched fuel tanks, both engines sputtered to a stop?

How long are you going to fly around with this "simple" engine failure, devoting all this time and effort trying to get the engine relit? What if you get it re-lit and the insides come unglued, placing you in a position where the prop can't be feathered, the engine comes out of the engine mounts or exhaust gasses cut your wingspar?
 
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