Engine Failure On Takeoff - 2 Cfi's At The Controls

[ReportCanoa]

This is all wrong.

Keeping the gear out in a piston twin WILL kill you.

I would bet you anything the Feds would have said nothing had these guys landed straight ahead with the gear up at a controlled rate of descent.

They crashed the plane BECAUSE the gear was hanging out. It is a TREMENDOUS amount of drag and compound that with an engine failure?
No wonder they pancaked it.

 

[xshuttlefa]

In a "learning experience" I had with a Beech Sierra one time, it is rather difficult to transition to landing again once airborne, even at low-altitude with runway remaining.

I had just rotated when the right door opened. This airplane did this all the time and since I had just rotated, I figured ( wrongly) that I'd just close the throttle and land on the remaining runway. Why waste time going around the pattern when I can just land again, right?

WRONG, VERY WRONG. I got the plane back down, not without porpoising it twices and having to really stand on the brakes to get it to stop. I was still at a fairly good pace as I turned off the runway at the end. Luckily I did not damage the plane, myself or anyone else. To save .2 Hobbs I could have ended up costing myself a lot more. I almost turned an inconvenience into a major emergency.

Just wanted to make the point that it is rather difficult to bring the plane back down once airborne. As for the situation in question, I guess factors like terrain, weather, length of runway remaining all play a role. As was mentioned, many light twins are negative performers when one engine quits.

Enough runway with a flat overrun, might as well put it back down. But with little runway and a bunch of trees, fences, roads, the plot thickens. As was also mentioned, you owe nothing to the plane if it fails and if it will take a controlled crash into a bunch of trees to save your life, so be it. But what else lies in those trees? What if it's dark or IFR or both?

I hope to begin my Multi soon and with that, an MEI. I'll find out then what I would really do, hopefully hypothetically.

 

[CMI]

NTSB Report
NTSB Identification: CHI06CA054

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060113X00074&key=1

 

[Luxor Two]

This is all wrong.

Keeping the gear out in a piston twin WILL kill you.

I would bet you anything the Feds would have said nothing had these guys landed straight ahead with the gear up at a controlled rate of descent.

They crashed the plane BECAUSE the gear was hanging out. It is a TREMENDOUS amount of drag and compound that with an engine failure?
No wonder they pancaked it.

Thanks for the thorough analysis, I can only guess your vast experience of raising and lowering landing gear in your sweet CRJ has given you the valuable insight to come to flightinfo and proclaim this to the rest of us that know no better.

Do you think they pancaked it in because the gear was out, or do you think it is possible the pitch attitude was not sufficient to provide a safe margin from stall speed?


On a side note, hopefully "UndauntedFlyer" will share more about what happened after the aircraft first stalled and how the instructor managed to fly a crippled airplane back around the pattern I know (I'm sure he has more knowledge of all the details than I've heard).

Besides the decision to perform the exercise in an actual aircraft off of a runway, which I disagree with....hard deck at altitude and sims {for procedure} are the place for this exercise...the MEI actually did a good job flying a twin with broken landing gear (broken and dangling), curled prop tips from rwy contact (yeah they hit pretty hard) and a wrinkled fuselage while getting no assistance from the "frozen in his seat" CFI.

This is an excellent thread and something that absolutely must be discussed and demonstrated many times not only in ME training but in rental checkouts, currency flights, and checkrides.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

NTSB Narrative

NTSB Identification: CHI06CA054.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Thursday, December 08, 2005 in Rockford, IL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/28/2006
Aircraft: Piper PA-44-180, registration: N2196B
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
The airplane sustained substantial damage during a hard landing. The flight instructor and dual student were engaged in an instructional flight at the time of the accident. The flight instructor held a multi-engine airplane instructor rating and was providing training to the other pilot at the time of the accident. The dual student held a commercial pilot certificate with single and multi-engine airplane ratings, and a flight instructor certificate with a single-engine airplane rating. He was obtaining training in preparation for the multi-engine flight instructor rating at the time of the accident. The flight instructor stated that he intended for the student to execute a simulated forced landing on the remaining runway immediately after liftoff. He reported that he instructed the dual student to back taxi the full length of the runway. The tower subsequently cleared the flight for takeoff followed by an immediate landing. He noted that the dual student held the brakes and applied full engine power. Upon reaching full power, the student released the brakes and began the takeoff roll. After liftoff the student established the airplane in a climb at 88 [knots]. The instructor stated that upon reaching an altitude of 200 feet above ground level (agl), he instructed the student to "simultaneously reduce both throttles to idle while pitching for a landing attitude that maintain[ed] 88 [knots]. He reported that the resulting descent rate "did not appear favorable" so about 100 feet agl he "commanded" the dual student to execute a go-around. He noted that full engine power was applied, however, the descent continued until the airplane contacted the runway in a "flat attitude." It subsequently bounced back into the air. He recalled that the stall warning horn sounded shortly before runway contact. The flight instructor stated that he assumed control of the airplane at this point and decided to continue the go-around since the engines seemed to be producing full power. He noted that during the flight around the traffic pattern, the rudder and stabilator were "less responsive than usual." He subsequently executed a no-flap landing on the departure runway. A post accident inspection revealed that the fuselage skin on the left and right sides, forward of the windshield was buckled. The left main landing gear strut was bent aft approximately 90 degrees. Both engine propellers were in the feathered position. The blade tips were curled and twisted consistent with runway contact. The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
Failure of the commercial pilot (dual student) to maintain a proper descent rate and a safe airspeed during the simulated forced landing. Additional causes were the failure of the flight instructor and the dual student to initiate a go-around in sufficient time to prevent the hard landing and a failure by the flight instructor to provide timely remedial action, which allowed an unsafe condition to develop. A contributing factor was the inadvertent stall encountered prior to runway contact.

 

[Northern Lights]

AOPA INSTRUCTOReport

I must say that this has been a very interesting and informative thread. When I was instructing, I would put the student in the Frasca FTD, and fail one engine right after liftoff. If they brought both throttles to idle, they would crash -- every time! I know that the FTD is different from the actual plane, but the lesson was that it was necessary to keep quite a bit of power on the good engine if the intention was to actually land.

On another note, has anyone read the third quarter AOPA Instructor report? The front page article is called "The multiengine dilema -- Chop and drop, or clean up and go?" Me thinks that the author is UndauntedFlyer
---------------------------------------
Here is an accident from when I was a student. the CFI choped the power and pancaked it in causing some major damage to the plane.

NTSB Identification: CHI96LA202 .
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, June 14, 1996 in GRAND FORKS, ND
Probable Cause Approval Date: 7/25/1996
Aircraft: Piper PA-44, registration: N853ND
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.

The instructor reported that he was attempting to demonstrate a rejected takeoff. Instead of initiating the maneuver during takeoff roll he attempted to initiate the maneuver on final approach to the runway. The instructor entered the maneuver from 150 feet AGL at 70 to 80 KIAS. As the airplane crossed the runway threshold, he reduced power on both engines to idle and applied forward elevator, establishing a descent for landing. He started to 'round the airplane out about 30 to 50 feet above the runway.' The descent rate was too high, so he continued to increase the pitch. He reported the stall horn sounded 'only milliseconds' before the airplane impacted the runway. The instructor reported the demonstration he performed of a rejected takeoff was not a recognized or an approved maneuver. He reported that the he had never had this maneuver demonstrated to him.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
the instructor pilot used an improper procedure when he demonstrated a rejected takeoff and he misjudged the flare.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

And here is the link about the multi engine "chop and drop" accident.

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=5661

And here is the one about the "Deer in the Headlights" syndrome.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/cfi_tools/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=5897


Questions/Comments!

 

[Holding Short]

[Me thinks that the author is UndauntedFlyer
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Me too. I think I met him one time. If it's the same guy that was giving checkrides at KPWK.

HS