Engine Failure On Takeoff - 2 Cfi's At The Controls

[UndauntedFlyer]

what they did wrong was get into that airplane in the first place.....but they made up for that mistake by doing the right thing and landing.......

I'm not quite clear on the meaning of this post. Are you referring the accident that is the initial subject of this thread? Meaning that their only option was to crash the airplane and that that was the correct choice?

 

[IHateDaley]

I see that this discussion evolved into an article in the June edition of the Flight Training magazine (or is it the other way around?), written by UF himself.

 

[barracuda]

I've done something very similar during my MEI training. It's a great thing to have experienced and I'm glad I was shown it. In a duchess or seminone continuing the takeoff will seldom produce satisfactory results as has been stated over and over. The trick (procedure) is to not pull the power back when it happens in order to land especially on a long runway. The airplane isn't going anywhere fast anyway. The first thing as always is to maintain control of the aircraft and then secondly to slowly retard throttle to come down and land it.

The specific airport also matters. Are you in kansas where if you can maintain altitude or maybe even climb slowly you can bring it around (admittedly dangerous) or do you have a 300 foot hill at the end?

I am by no means to qualify this question other than being a pilot but hopefully its close to right.
:beer:

 

[papanovember]

Here's a question to muck up the works - Will the prop feather if the engine stops? Are there anti feather pins on this plane? How about other light twins you are flying?

NO. That always confused me when doing my multi training. My MEI and all the examiners I had for each stage check would ask about the fixed and variable forces acting on the prop. Then they would ask what will happen if the engine fails. They wanted to hear that it would feather but it didn't. I believe the POH (don't have it here) said the feathering pins engage below 950 RPM. But for the prop to feather you need a loss of oil pressure. As we all know when the engine fails the prop just windmills depending on speed you could have no reduction in engine RPM. My instuctor demonstrated this once in the Seminole by failing an engine while in a decent and having me try and decide which engine was failed by looking at the instruments and I couldn't tell. The only difference was the failed engine had about an inch more of MAP and the temps were a little cooler. A failed engine that is windmilling will still have oil pressure which in turn will keep the prop in a low pitch position. The only case of engine failure that will cause the prop to feather automatically is a rapid decrease in oil pressure.

 

[brokeflyer]

seminole is not a part 23 airplane.....don't matter if you lose one at 50ft with a feathered prop....it may climb.....or it may not.

good luck

 

[acaTerry]

The first thing as always is to maintain control of the aircraft and then secondly to slowly retard throttle to come down and land it.

Exactly! The plane is losing energy, and speed is lost as the aircraft pitifully attempts to continue where it was going. Think of this as an excercise in energy management.
A sudden chopping of the power (as recommended by the manual saying "immediately close both throttles") will only make bad turn to really bad.
Control the plane with available power and then reduce it appropriately to land.

 

[FL420]

Many thanks to UndauntedFlyer for starting this thread and to all who contributed. I am just starting to get back to flying piston twins after being away from them for about 15 years. Lots of really good info and insight here. I picked up some very good tips.

Thx again.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

High Performance Twins & Blueline Considerations

Turbocharged High Performance Twins and Blueline Airspeed Considerations

One point in this thread is that a checkout in twin engine airplanes should include an engine failure after takeoff from a simulated airport hard-deck of 3000 feet AGL. This can be done safely, easily and without harming the engines in most any non-turbocharged light twin. However, if the airplane you’ll be flying is turbocharged or for any reason you are reluctant to abruptly fail and engine in this simulation, a performance test can still be accomplished by very gradually reducing power and then feathering the engine. After the engine is feathered the single engine climb performance can be validated. If it is sufficiently positive then it will only be that much better 3000 feet lower after a takeoff from an airport at that lower elevation.

Now let’s talk BLUELINE.

After the engine is feathered, the pilot should experiment with various airspeeds above and below “Blueline” (Vyse) as marked on the airspeed indicator.

When the engine is feathered on the twin as in the above recommendation, turbo-charged or not, the pilot should experiment with the performance capabilities of the airplane. As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, don’t use simulated “0-thrust” as that will give false performance results either positive or negative. With the engine feathered (real 0-thrust) it is now most important to determine the climb performance capability of the airplane at various airspeeds above and below blueline, such as blueline plus and minus 5 to 10 knots. Surprisingly, you will see that in effect, best rate of climb in feet per minute is practically the same for plus or minus 5 knots of blue line. Therefore, in a practical sense, the blueline should really be marked as 10 knots thick instead of being shown as only one exact airspeed. You will also see that when the airplane is at a light weight, such as with one person and half tanks of fuel, Vyse is, in effect, reduced by as much as 5 knots.

So as an example, if blueline (Vyse) is 100 knots at maximum gross weight in a typical high performance twin, best rate of climb in feet per minute will be immeasurably demonstrated to be the same at 95 to 105 knots. So in this case, if the airplane is very light, the best single engine rate of climb airspeed will actually be about 95 knots, or 90 to 100 knots considering the reduction in Vyse for the reduced gross weight.

What does this all mean? Simply this, if you were to lose an engine just after takeoff with no runway remaining and no option for a safe landing, the gear was retracted and you checked your airspeed as 5 knots below blueline, use what has been learned from the 3000 foot AGL test, hold that airspeed (Vyse-5k) because there is no performance value in pitching forward to obtain blueline, plus such a pitch down is certain to cost altitude when none can be given up. Furthermore, if the airplane is lightly loaded, and your tests at 3000 AGL show a best performance rate of climb airspeed to be blueline minus 5 knots, then as much as 10 knots below the marked blueline may be used to prevent a loss of altitude. Pitching forward to obtain the marked blueline which would be an increase of 10 knots in this case, will probably cost as much as 50 - 100 feet of precious altitude. So it would be best here to hold the current airspeed of blueline minus 10 knots (Vyse-5k) and climb to a safe altitude, then gradually increase airspeed for further climb. Of course, in any twin engine airplane Vmc is a critical airspeed that must be constantly considered for safety too, and in the above example of blueline minus 10 knots this may be dangerously close to Vmc in some airplanes. Also, when flying with and engine shut down/feathered it is always a good practice to be within gliding distance of an emergency use airport should the remaining engine fail for whatever reason.

And in conclusion on the topic of blueline, let’s talk about blue line on final approach.

In a practical sense, blueline airspeed is used on final approach in most every twin engine airplane for both single engine approaches and normal two engine approaches. Why is this? The answer here is that there is no good reason except that it pre-bugged, blue is a pretty color, and that speed is not too fast or too slow, it’s just about right.

Blue line is usually held on final approach until 300 to 500 feet AGL whereupon full flaps for landing are normally extended and airspeed reduced to the normal over the threshold Vref speed of 1.3 x Vso.

So should blueline be used on final approach in a typical twin? The answer is yes, but not for any real aerodynamic reason. It’s just a pretty color.

Your questions or comments on this topic are welcome……

 

[aerobaticspilot]

piston twins or single or anything piston just flat out scares me. 4 engine failures in piston aircraft i had enough. I will add this though at point where the engine fails you have about one second to decide to continue or land. personally i would continue the climb unless i know i was not going to clear an obsticale and if thats the case i would not be in that plane becuase that is flat out stupid. Another point is when you do a take off brief your briefing a lot of information and engine failure is one. You got to do what your brief states. please do not do the opposite becuase your not ready for it and the other pilot is not ready and you will kill yourself.

 

[Espalda Mojado]

ENGINE FAILURE ON TAKEOFF – 2 CFI’S AT THE CONTROLS


OK, you’re rolling down the runway on a 5,000 foot runway in a Piper Seminole. There are two people on board and half-tanks of fuel. You rotate and an engine fails at 75 feet AGL. Your airspeed is about 83 knots (Vxse), or 5 knots below Vyse. The landing gear is still down because there is still runway/overrun left or because you were distracted by engine roughness.

What should you do in this situation? What does the FAA say you should do?

So what happed to these two instructors?

Well in short they crashed on to the runway, destroying the airplane. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

This accident was caused largely by the fact that no technique is being taught in any publication anywhere as to how to safely handle this emergency. In the FAA’s latest (2004) publication on this subject (FAA-H-8083-3A) the Airplane Flying Handbook, it simply says, “If the engine failure occurs prior to selecting the landing gear to the UP position, close both throttles and land on the remaining runway or overrun.” The problem here is that that is exactly what these two pilots did and that action destroyed the airplane. What’s wrong here? The problem is that the FAA’s publication and the PA-44 manual only say to land, but do not address technique. Unfortunately, poor technique oftentimes spells disaster.

COMMENTS/QUESTIONS are welcome.....

Yet another example of pilot error. These two should have known better.