Engine Failure On Takeoff - 2 Cfi's At The Controls

[CalifDan]

Interesting Thread

This has been an interesting thread for me. Pretty much all my time is multi these days in and out of large and small runways (at least 2500 feet is my preference). The engine fail at 75 feet has always been interesting and I agree with the last few posts regarding the actual process necessary if you devide to abort. The pitch change would be dramatic twice...initially down and then up to arrest the resultant sink rate.

I wanted to share a process I use to determine the go decision. I was always taught that when you select gear up, that is the commitment to go. This bothered me a bit, because selecting was not absolutely defined. Is that when you first touch the gear lever, or after you move it, or slightly earlier or later? When I take off in my Duchess, I leave my hand on the throttles until I've decided that insufficient runway remains. When I first release the throttles, the gear is coming up and I am going to go even with an engine failure. Given the take-off configuration of the Duchess, at that point all that is necessary is to clean up the gear and feather the dead engine.

I briefed my Commercial Multi Examiner on this prior to our first take-off. He liked it. I think the primary issue is having a definite and consistent point at which you commit.

 

[RefugePilot]

Overall I would say these guys were succesfull in handling this emegency in that they walked away from it. Until now I would say I would go at 75 feet, but the thought of "I'd rather hit the fence at the end of the runway really slow than the house just past it very fast." comes to mind.

If they had hit the fence slowly as opposed to pancaking it in, I would say they were 100% succesfull at what they tried to do. We had an overweight C182 crash after takeoff at my airport last week. Nothing like a flaming field with a wrecked airplane in the middle to bring bad publicity to aviation. I imagine this incident we are now discussing did not get any media attention, what the FAA has to say about it, I'd like to know.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Thank god, an ERAU grad to steer us in the right direction.

 

[Tonala2k]

Another Factor

We've talked a bit already about knowing the planes performance with respects to Vyse, Vxse. But what about moments? When that engine fails how far above Vmc are you? If you have just rotated clearly you are above it. And if you're climbing you are even that much further above it. With gear down Vmc has dropped a few knots. Clearly directional control is not an issue as to go/ no go. As stated earlier it's about single-engine performance. But I digress.
The failure of the aborted takeoff appears to be A lack of understanding moments about the center of gravity. In most twins the center of gravity is bellow the center of thrust. They more than likely knew that once they cut throttle they would have to pitch for the runway, but their thrust was forcing their nose down in the first place. Once they lost thrust they lost nose down moment but were likely hoping the plane would automatically pitch down because of the loss of power. It would have taken only a couple seconds to over come this pitch change, the same amount of time to lower the flaps. (Now half their altitude is lost) In twins flaps are creating drag bellow the C.G. causing a nose down moment pitching the plane into the runway with no more altitude to recover with. I think they should have been able to save the plane as well as them selves, but it sounds like they were too interested in "let's find out." They should have taken more time on the ground before trying to push themselves and the plane to the limits.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Apples and oranges. ERAU is a UNIVERSITY!!!!

DCA is only an ACADEMY!!!

Come on now. Now who are you going to listen to.

 

[paid4training]

I just took my MEI check ride yesterday and the examiner pounded the sht out of me about these types of situations. The proper proceedure in the airplane I was flying in was: 1) if I loose an engine before lift off I will smoothly close the throttles and apply smooth braking 2) if I loose an engine after take off with runway remaining I will Land on the remaining runway and close the throttles and apply smooth braking. 3) if I loose an engine after takeoff with no runway remaining I will perform the engine out proceedure and based on my climb performance I will either land straight ahead or circle back to the airport.

He also wanted me to focus on establishing blue line BEFORE the gear or flaps come up. I did about four of these during the check ride...the first one was on roll out... the next one was 1100 feet agl, another was after vmc demonstration and the last was about 2 miles out from landing. I am proud to say I aced them all and did a kick a$$ vmc, drag demo, and steep turns etc.

Another point I want to make about this situation is why the hell were they doing those things that close to the ground. During my check ride we noticed another (very prominent)multi engine flight school landing and coming to a complete stop on the runway and then start the take off from beyond mid point on the runway. He made a comment that it was dangerous and stupid and that I should never do that with a student. His point was its stupid to use half the runway on a takeoff. If an incident like described earlier were to happen with that airplane they would pretty much be out of option 1 and 2 on the pre-take off briefing.


Every airplane has different single engine performance but factors of Vmc and single engine proceedures don't or shouldn't be altered.

Just my two cents...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Overall I would say these guys were succesfull in handling this emegency in that they walked away from it. I imagine this incident we are now discussing did not get any media attention, what the FAA has to say about it, I'd like to know.

In this case the two CFI's had an emergency revocation of their certificates. One has quit aviation and the other is in the process of recertification.

 

[paid4training]

just a quick question on the aerodynamics of this situation. 75 feet so I am thinking ground effect is not helping, except for the poor decision of doing this in the first place, what would be the correct pilotage in this situation? Establish blue line go through the drill fly the airplane?

 

[dogismycopilot]

I would be interested to see what the NTSB has to say. A preiminary may be out already if this was recent. Care to post a date?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The go decision

just a quick question on the aerodynamics of this situation. 75 feet so I am thinking ground effect is not helping, except for the poor decision of doing this in the first place, what would be the correct pilotage in this situation? Establish blue line go through the drill fly the airplane?

If the pilot decides to continue the takeoff the procedure is simply:
1. Maintain directional control
2. Gear up
3. Pitch forward to maintain Vxse (or Vyse if that has already been obtained)
4. Verify failed engine (some people use throttle for verification but I prefer to verify the failed engine by retarding the prop control to partially back)
5. Then feather
6 Maintain Vxse or Vyse until obstacles are cleared.

Trouble shooting is not part or the time critical engine failuires that may occur at less than about 300 feet. At higher altitudes it would be prudent to slow down the pace a little to provide some minimum troubleshooting.

 

[Holding Short]

Could someone post a sample pre-takeoff brief exactly as they would do it for the same senario we're talking about?

2 CFI's in a light twin,who does what?

Thanks, HS

 

[MauleSkinner]

Could someone post a sample pre-takeoff brief exactly as they would do it for the same senario we're talking about?

"We're departing runway 12 at Podunk. It's day, VFR conditions, with flaps up. Prior to liftoff, we're going to abort for any malfunction. Between liftoff and moving the gear switch to the "up" position, we're going to abort only for engine failure, engine fire, or loss of directional control, continuing straight ahead with whatever runway is available, rolling out onto the nice grass off the end (although we will take out several approach lights). Once the gear switch is in the "up" position, we will treat malfunctions as airborne emergencies, and either return here to runway 12, or to Big City International Airport, where they have prettier fire trucks. Any questions or comments?"

Fly safe!

David

 

[MauleSkinner]

Another consideration I would make in whether to chop the power and drop from 75’ or go would be any systems lost off the failed engine.

Remember...this is probably the language used by the 2 CFI's who wrecked the airplane for training purposes.

David

 

[AC560]

Remember...this is probably the language used by the 2 CFI's who wrecked the airplane for training purposes.

David

I don't understand the point of your comment.

 

[AAflyer]

Excellent points on this thread, however the one item I think needs to be reviewed is the brief itself! We do them all the time in the airlines, infact It has become such a common place the brief itself has become nothing more than 3-4 canned sentences. (not good)

Especially with ME/MEI training a better understanding of the brief would be beneficial to all involved, however this once again is shelved due to the MINIMUM time (and MINIMUM MONEY) people like to put forth.

If you choose to close the throttles and land straight ahead, CAN YOU? Similar to what Jedi Nein said, if it is not available how in the heck can you brief it that way?

As another poster mentioned, is the commit point when you touch the gear handle, in transit, or retracted? A thorough brief on the ground with a REAL explanation in the event of "what if" is paramount! Go in depth to each area, so in the event a failure does occur there is NO question on what needs to be accomplished.

If you had two engine fires, and one engine still putting out thrust, you are now 1/2 mile before the runway would you shut both down and crash? Would you let that remaining power take you to the runway? If you have considerable runway remaining do you close both throttles near blue line and with any sloppy technique stall and crash on a perfectly good runway? How about using some common sense like Undaunted mentioned, use the remaining power to land safely! Common sense like UAL78 says is not so common anymore.

Lastly, was this a simulated engine failure, or a real engine failure? I for one
Leave 500 feet as my hard deck in certain aircraft before any simulated engine failures occur. Why?

I truly believe that it is very difficult for some, especially students to be on the EXACT same page as you the instructor, and in that case any "unexpected or non standard procedures create an unrealistic scenario, they increase the pilot workload dramatically, and can create potential hazards to you the aircraft and individuals near you".

Excellent thread, and many excellent responses.

cheers,
AAflyer

 

[Sig]

Wow. Two MEI's did WHAT in a WHAT?

The Seminole is the worst performing twin engine aircraft in production- period. You can NOT climb out dirty by accelerating to Vyse- these guys boxed themselves into a corner. You can brief all you want (and that's a good thing), but stupid trumps any procedure or contingency plan you come up with.

Gear down? Runway ahead? Don't TOUCH A THING, maintain directional conrol and land that pig (you have to point DOWN to accelerate to 88), close throttles in the flare (you lose so much lift *LIFT* that the plane needs when you reduce power on the operating engine). This is a Seminole, not a Baron- procedurally it's a suicide on the go if you munch a motor that soon.

Hit something soft and cheap. All of this gets really scary on a hot day. It descends nice and gently with one feathered, clean, and blueline at 2500' when it's above 92 degrees and humid. God, I don't miss instructing in Dallas in that machine.

*Just had a flashback that makes me wonder WTF? We used to brief where we'd hit the ground on a hot day following an engine failure [no runway remaining but critically low]... during a checkride. Unreal. You just can't bring it around- pitch to 82 to bump above trees or powerlines, and the resulting descent about a handful of seconds later will put you in the field. Un-freakin' real. Several hundred (almost a grand) hours in that dang thing- one engine failure, a gear failure, and an ALT idiot light were all I ever saw.

 

[AC560]

Another consideration I would make in whether to chop the power and drop from 75’ or go would be any systems lost off the failed engine. Many twins only have one hydraulic or vacuum pump. If it was IFR with no vacuum pump (assuming vacuum gyro’s which are still pretty common in most GA twins), I think I would prefer to take my chances dropping 75’ then trying to circle around to shoot a 1 engine partial panel approach (assuming the airport I was leaving had an approach) regardless of whether I could climb or not.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I don't understand the point of your comment.

Another consideration I would make in whether to chop the power and drop from 75’ or go ....

If you tell somebody to "chop and drop", they're gonna "chop and drop", which is how you get enough impact in this situation to total an airplane. If you tell someone to "land straight ahead", they are more likely to land the airplane under control, with minimal damage.

Sure, a proficient pilot SHOULD understand what you're talking about, but literal interpretation of comments like this is what keeps lawyers in business.

Fly safe!

David

 

[AC560]

Sure, a proficient pilot SHOULD understand what you're talking about, but literal interpretation of comments like this is what keeps lawyers in business.

Sorry I didn't realize this was a court of law, I thought it was an Internet forum.

Legal Disclaimer - I am not a CFI (hell I may not even be a pilot or even a real person for that matter) anything I post on these forums does not constitute legal, marital, financial, flying, or masturbatory advice.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Gear down? Runway ahead? Don't TOUCH A THING, maintain directional conrol and land that pig (you have to point DOWN to accelerate to 88), close throttles in the flare (you lose so much lift *LIFT* that the plane needs when you reduce power on the operating engine). This is a Seminole, not a Baron- procedurally it's a suicide on the go if you munch a motor that soon.

Hit something soft and cheap. All of this gets really scary on a hot day. It descends nice and gently with one feathered, clean, and blueline at 2500' when it's above 92 degrees and humid. God, I don't miss instructing in Dallas in that machine.

*

So does the gear position, up or down, really make a difference in the decision to continue or abort. Not to me. And it shouldn’t make a difference to anyone else if the gear can be moved up or down in seconds. Therefore, decisions to continue should be made on known AIRCRAFT PERFORMANCE CAPABILITY, not gear position.

Personally, I have found the PA-44 (Seminole) to be a weak but a satisfactory performer when I have done the engine failure on takeoff simulation from a 3000 foot AGL simulated hard deck. In other words it will climb out at 200 fpm following an engine failure from the after takeoff scenario. One exception was a particular one where the owner had installed vortex generators (VG's) on the wings for short field purposes. That one was a "dog." Some are better than others but if you want to have the option of the "GO" with an engine failure just after takeoff, the 3000 foot AGL hard deck engine failure after takeoff simulation to an actual feather is a must to know your airplane. It’s your life. If the airplane it will make it at 3000 feet AGL it will make it from 75' AGL.

Another factor for consideration is 3-blade props. The drag from an engine failure with a 3-blade prop is much greater than with a 2-blade prop. So if your airplane has a 3-blade prop the pilot's action following an engine failure after takeoff must be prompt and decisive: Gear up, verify and feather while maintaining Vxse, or preferable Vyse if that airspeed has already been achieved. With a 2-blade your actions are the same but the 3-blade just makes hesitation and indecision a possibly fatal factor. With the 3-blade prop, if there is indecision present, some altitude will be lost.