EMB Phenom 300

[BluDevAv8r]

Gulfstream / Grumman was always known to make rock solid aircraft right back to the G1. The only blemish they took was relating themselves to the Israeli crap (g200 etc)

Embraer was always known to make $hitty, noisy, cramped regional jets.

This could very well be a perfect aircraft but IMHO it will never sell, simply by its name and marketing problems. Embraer means Legacy and Regional Jet - two things you dont want to think about when looking for corp aircraft.

Maybe they are banking on this "personal jet" thing? but I still see that guy buying a little toy Citation first...

Buenos Suerte Embraer!

Would you say the same thing about the EMB-190? How about the new EMB-190 Business Jet?

The 145 has its limitations (it was never designed to compete with a Gulfstream) but each iteration of it was better than the previous version...culminating in the 145XR (winglet version that only XJT has) which is actually a really nice performing airplane and does a great job at the mission it was designed to do (and does so with a 99.9% controllable completion factor...50 pax...2000lbs cargo....80M cruise...1500 to 1800 FPM climb all the way to FL370 (with no step climb).

That all said, the 190 is in a whole 'nother class than the 145...The 190 isn't a "regional jet" and has better performance capabilities, DOC's, and passenger comfort than an A319 or 737-500/600.

And I also actually think the Phenom will do quite well also. Time will tell of course.

-Neal

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Would you say the same thing about the EMB-190? How about the new EMB-190 Business Jet?

The 145 has its limitations (it was never designed to compete with a Gulfstream) but each iteration of it was better than the previous version...culminating in the 145XR (winglet version that only XJT has) which is actually a really nice performing airplane and does a great job at the mission it was designed to do (and does so with a 99.9% controllable completion factor...50 pax...2000lbs cargo....80M cruise...1500 to 1800 FPM climb all the way to FL370 (with no step climb).

That all said, the 190 is in a whole 'nother class than the 145...The 190 isn't a "regional jet" and has better performance capabilities, DOC's, and passenger comfort than an A319 or 737-500/600.

And I also actually think the Phenom will do quite well also. Time will tell of course.

-Neal

I hope it does well. More airplanes means more jobs as far as Im concerned.

My point was that Embreaer makes $hit. I have ridden in enough noisy regional $hit made by them to make that statement. A terd is a terd no matter how much lipstick you slap on it.

Its safe to say it wont cut it in the corp. world. Being able ot climb unrestricted to FL370 just wont sell that WSCoD.

IMHO - If you say you aren't competing with Gulfstream, Dassault, and Bombardier the dont even attempt to enter the market!

Unfortunatly, it does not take a genius to see it having the same fate as the BBJ, the Legacy, and the 319CJ.

There is a reason.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I hope it does well. More airplanes means more jobs as far as Im concerned.

My point was that Embreaer makes $hit. I have ridden in enough noisy regional $hit made by them to make that statement. A terd is a terd no matter how much lipstick you slap on it.

Its safe to say it wont cut it in the corp. world. Being able ot climb unrestricted to FL370 just wont sell that WSCoD.

IMHO - If you say you aren't competing with Gulfstream, Dassault, and Bombardier the dont even attempt to enter the market!

Unfortunatly, it does not take a genius to see it having the same fate as the BBJ, the Legacy, and the 319CJ.

There is a reason.

I wasn't arguing the 145 as a corporate platform. What I WAS saying is that the 190 (airline or business platform) is a MUCH different airplane than the 190. What I was also saying is that the 145 has, more or less, accomplished the mission it was designed for as an airline platform. Had oil not shot to 2x or 3x what it was when the aircraft were all ordered, it would have even been more successful. What you and I view as a "nice airplane" from the cockpit doesn't necessarily always pan out to "nice airplane" from the balance sheet and income statement perspective and at the end of the day, that is all that matters.

That all said, the Phenom will be competing against the Mustang and the Eclipse (and maybe a few other small jets) - not the Gulfstream. The 190 business jet will compete against other large jets that were designed for 2500-3000nm missions. Time will tell if either of these new ventures are successful. I'm not arguing one way or the other since neither really affects my career path (with the exception that I think VLJ's will become the airway plug of the sky...reducing air traffic movement abilities nationwide). I do like to at least offer a counter-opinion at times.

Lastly, if you are an airline manager and need a 90-110 seat jet to replace your DC-9/737 size airframe...why wouldn't you want to go with an aircraft that has 25% less DOC, better passenger comfort/ergonomics/space, and better performance than the DC-9/737-500 product? I think you will find that JetBlue is working out the teething issues on this aircraft (never buy the A model of anything) and then DL, NW, and others will follow suit and be very happy with this new generation of 100 seat jet (as an airline platform...who knows if it will work as a corporate platform).

-Neal

 

[Gulfstream 200]

What you and I view as a "nice airplane" from the cockpit doesn't necessarily always pan out to "nice airplane" from the balance sheet and income statement perspective and at the end of the day, that is all that matters.

-Neal

for the airlines, yes. Not for corporate. The cockpit has very little input on the decision. Cabin space, lack of noise, performance, reputation, range, and resale value/market sell corporate aircraft - not aquisition pricetags.

IMHO - Embraer best lose the airline mentality/stink if they want to sell corporate planes.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

for the airlines, yes. Not for corporate. The cockpit has very little input on the decision. Cabin space, lack of noise, perfromance, reputation, range, and resale value/market sell corporate aircraft - not aquisition pricetags.

IMHO - Embraer better lose the airline mentality if they want to sell corporate planes.

Perhaps Embraer needs to hire some Gulfstream, Cessna, and Falcon sales people. Who knows.

But looking at the 190 with respect to your remarks, it seems to fair well. Cabin space? Yep, tons (4085 cubic feet for cabin 615 cubic feet for cargo). Lack of noise? From what I have heard, it is whisper quiet...nothing like the 145. Performance? Pretty good - .82M, FL410, etc (but not a GV of course). Reputation? Remains to be seen for this actual aircraft. Range? 4200 NM (with 8 people on board according to Embraer) - which makes it a very good transcon or NY to London type of aircraft. Auto-throttles, fly-by-wire, CCD, WI-FI, EFB, etc.

-Neal

 

[Groundpounder]

I'm glad I started such a lively discussion..........lol

Since the 300 won't be around until 2009, and I have a feeling we'll need more of an airplane by then if things keep going like they are. But anyway, I'll let you know what I think.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

I agree with G200 and will add 3 more criteria to the corporate aircraft decision making mix:

Sales - Having experienced sales reps with established relationships and reputations for meeting clients needs.

Marketing - Having products and strategies aimed squarely at meeting the operators needs, along with well executed plans for communicating.

Support - Having after sales support that keeps the customer happy with the decision to buy your product.


Embraer does not have any of those. They are airline focused on all of their strategies, i.e.: DOC, DOC, DOC and Acquisition Cost, Acquisition Cost, Acquisition Cost. Competing on price is the common thread for bottom feeding organizations, be them airline, charter, or OEMs. It is what you do when you have nothing else to offer, or no clue how to deliver and market value to a customer.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Perhaps Embraer needs to hire some Gulfstream, Cessna, and Falcon sales people. Who knows.

But looking at the 190 with respect to your remarks, it seems to fair well. Cabin space? Yep, tons (4085 cubic feet for cabin 615 cubic feet for cargo). Lack of noise? From what I have heard, it is whisper quiet...nothing like the 145. Performance? Pretty good - .82M, FL410, etc (but not a GV of course). Reputation? Remains to be seen for this actual aircraft. Range? 4200 NM (with 8 people on board according to Embraer) - which makes it a very good transcon or NY to London type of aircraft. Auto-throttles, fly-by-wire, CCD, WI-FI, EFB, etc.

-Neal

sounds exactly like a BBJ?

Its dead before it hits the marketplace.

Believe me, Im not HOPING for this, but I am lost to as why people try to push Embraer junk as a competitor to well respected bizjet names.

It can have it all, but at the end of the day its a dressed up South American regional airliner with no value. Its role? possibly as a disposable corporate shuttle for an outfit with a clueless CFO.

Corporations often buy new, run and depriciate aircraft for a few years, sell them when the market is strong, and buy new again.....and often make a profit doing this! -- so much for that "corporate toy" and "first thing to be sold" old school mentality huh?

For example, there is a virtual wait list on used DA900ex aircraft right now, and they are going for top dollar. My guess is the same for late model Gulf/GLEX aircraft also.

I wonder how the Embraer Legacy market is? I bet you can get a new one within 6 months or less for a real bargain. Now try selling it 4 years later. yikes. The number guy making that decision may lose his job!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

sounds exactly like a BBJ?

Its dead before it hits the marketplace.

Believe me, Im not HOPING for this, but I am lost to as why people try to push Embraer junk as a competitor to well respected bizjet names.

It can have it all, but at the end of the day its a dressed up South American regional airliner with no value. Its role? possibly as a disposable corporate shuttle for an outfit with a clueless CFO.

Corporations often buy new, run and depriciate aircraft for a few years, sell them when the market is strong, and buy new again.....and often make a profit doing this!

For example, there is a virtual wait list on used DA900ex aircraft right now, and they are going for top dollar. My guess is the same for late model Gulf/GLEX aircraft also.

I wonder how the Embraer Legacy market is? I bet you can get a new one within 6 months or less for a real bargain. Now try selling it 4 years later. yikes. The number guy making that decision may lose his job!

Well what is the mission of the BBJ versus that of the 190? It is an apples to oranges comparison if that is what you are trying to do - compare them. Unless you are just trying to compare each one to its manufacturer's stated spot in their respective marketplace. The BBJ hasn't worked because its target niche is tiny - long haul luxury travel (at a significant price). The 190 isn't a long haul airplane nor is its acquisition price sky high (from what I know).

I do hear you on the residual value aspect and we both know that solid residual values don't come over night...they come over time from building and supporting proven airframes. Embraer is new at this segment of the industry. And again, I don't think you can lump the Legacy in with the Lineage (190). Apples to oranges here as well.

-Neal

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well what is the mission of the BBJ versus that of the 190? It is an apples to oranges comparison if that is what you are trying to do - compare them. Unless you are just trying to compare each one to its manufacturer's stated spot in their respective marketplace. The BBJ hasn't worked because its target niche is tiny - long haul luxury travel (at a significant price). The 190 isn't a long haul airplane nor is its acquisition price sky high (from what I know).

I do hear you on the residual value aspect and we both know that solid residual values don't come over night...they come over time from building and supporting proven airframes. Embraer is new at this segment of the industry. And again, I don't think you can lump the Legacy in with the Lineage (190). Apples to oranges here as well.

-Neal

fair enough. time will tell.

Neal, I know you have posted here for a long time. Does your profile mean you got the flowthrough from COEX to the mainline?

If so, congrats!

I fight like mad to get on that 777 PHNL service when repositioning for flights through Hawaii. Hands down best First Class of any US carrier.

 

[Herculeus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the BBJ cheaper then a Gulfstream? I thought the problem was people didn't like that you had to find an FBO with stairs?

 

[Groundpounder]

I think the BBJ is more, and it has its own stairs. The problem is finding a hangar big enough for it.

 

[LegacyDriver]

does it rattle and shake and struggle along at FL290 like the rest of the POS WSCoD line?

"Rattle and shake" ??? Dude, please, PLEASE lay down the crackpipe and STEP AWAY FROM IT.

 

[LegacyDriver]

For example, there is a virtual wait list on used DA900ex aircraft right now, and they are going for top dollar. My guess is the same for late model Gulf/GLEX aircraft also.

I wonder how the Embraer Legacy market is? I bet you can get a new one within 6 months or less for a real bargain. Now try selling it 4 years later. yikes. The number guy making that decision may lose his job!

USED Embraers are selling at a PREMIUM right now due to delivery times. I know firsthand on this one.

Embraer does not have a delivery position for a Legacy until I believe Q1 or Q2 2008 (it may be later but I am being conservative here--I believe it was at least 2 years). Thus people who want them now are paying for the used ones and not haggling on price.

It is a good airplane. If you had ever actually flown one you'd know that.

I love you guys and I'm all for a good laugh, but at *SOME* point objective discourse has to come into play... The constant and unwarranted Embraer bashing is unfair.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"Rattle and shake" ??? Dude, please, PLEASE lay down the crackpipe and STEP AWAY FROM IT.

skull,

do we really need to apply yet another ass whippin' on your WSCoD loving self?