EMB Phenom 300

[LegacyDriver]

skull,

do we really need to apply another ass whippin to your WSCoD loving self?

Do you fly a Legacy?

Do you have proof that it rattles and shakes at ANY altitude?

Any leg I am empty on you are WELCOME to ride the jumpseat and I will prove you wrong.

Okay then.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Do you fly a Legacy?

Do you have proof that it rattles and shakes at ANY altitude?

Any leg I am empty on you are WELCOME to join me on the jumpseat and I will prove you wrong.

Okay then.

thanks but no thanks.

we have all experienced the legendary Embraer quality on one too many regional airline legs.

You can put down a few nice seats and a nice carpet and call it a "Legacy" but its still the same POS....hence its success as a corporate aircraft!

 

[LegacyDriver]

thanks but no thanks.

we have all experienced the legendary Embraer quality on one too many regional airline legs.

You can put down a few nice seats and a nice carpet and call it a "Legacy" but its still the same POS....hence its success as a corporate aircraft!

Sounds like someone is afraid to be proven wrong.

POS? Where do you get off calling it a POS? Got any substantive evidence? I guess you've never even been inside a Legacy so that makes the request impossible to comply with.

Come on GS, you are better than that.

The Legacy is very successful. By mid-2008 they'll have close to 100 out there. For minimal investment that's a success, particularly in light of all the unwarranted bashing done by a lot of ignorant (in the sense of never having flown one, rather only knowing it second-hand) pilots/pundits.

The Embraer quality on Regional Airline legs only proves the soundness of the basic design. The airplane gets pounded into the ground daily and keeps going without complaint. In the corporate world this airplane isn't even breaking a sweat, and there is no dedicated corporate jet around that can take "Regional Airline" abuse... That doesn't stop folks from trying, but they wind up in the Citation Service Center, etc. etc. quite a lot as a result.

The airplane has its virtues and being DURABLE and RELIABLE is definitely high on that list. The price for this durability in my opinion comes in the payload department, but there's still plenty to accomplish a wide array of missions.

The "E" FL410 Legacy is a far cry from the misguided "P" Legacy. It's actually a vast improvement over the "E" FL390 airplanes, for that matter. Many upgrades. Embraer is learning and getting better. Give them some credit.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

ahhhh, should have know....

Its the "E" model, not the "P" model.

Silly me!

 

[LegacyDriver]

ahhhh, should have know....

Its the "E" model, not the "P" model.

Silly me!

Further proof that, though you may know more about every other facet of aviation than I, when it comes to the Legacy you don't.

 

[Groundpounder]

WHO CARES, ITS JUST AN AIRPLANE!

Is the Legacy REALLY that bad that you need to continue to bash it? Yeah maybe it isn't the best corporate aircraft ever, but they aren't falling out of the sky or running off the ends of runways. Direct all that negative energy towards something more deserving like the MU-2 or the AN-28.

 

[Cessnut]

I sat in the mock up of the 100 and noticed a few "airline" like features: Plastic interior parts, cheap trim and carpet etc... after spending some time with it, I realized that you do indeed tend to get what you pay for. The numbers on paper look good, but things we can't see on paper are things like loading envelope restrictions (which Embraer is notoriously bad about), life limited component terms, etc... Until it's actually out there flying, it's still a paper airplane. Another small turn off I had was the yoke. I like to feel the airplane inputs with my fingers, seemed like I was riding a Harley instead. Not the most ergonomical design IMO.
History and established service records are another point of concern for me. If I needed maintenance at GA airport, what does their service center network look like. Am I going to have to have it flown clear across the country? Brazil? New airplanes have a lot of work before they can get themselves established. I give the airplane 7 years to fully develop if it is a success...and I doubt that it will be when the owner has to say yes to the question at his lunch meeting; "Oh, an Embraer,...Don't they make commuters too"

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

It can have it all, but at the end of the day its a dressed up South American regional airliner with no value. Its role? possibly as a disposable corporate shuttle for an outfit with a clueless CFO.

Sure sounds a Pfizer zinger to me.....

Mr. I.

 

[Ha!]

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[Ha!]

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[Ha!]

Okay

I don't usaually post, but this one has drawn me out.

I was one of the first pilots on the EMB-170. Embrears hot item at the time. It had Primus Epic Honeywell gee whiz stuff in it. It had a very attractive cockpit with plenty of toys in it. I bet you could even make the cabin pretty.

What has not been mentioned is the fact that Joe CEO goes to the airport, wants to get in his airplane and get to his destination.

Something that EMB doesn't understand: Important people going to imprtant meetings with certain ladies of the night do not want some engineer with a funny accent to be part of the required flight crew.

Quirky screwed up maintanance problems (software integration problems, 30 minute boot ups, flt contrl no dispatch, ect.)requiring waiting for someone to come up from Sao Paulo to "Evaluate the problem" does not make corp operators happy.

Before emb guys get worked up over this let me say that I have made the jump to 91 corp and trust me emb has nothing on other high end corp aircraft. Sure every aircraft will have the occasional problem, but I have never flown a turbine aircraft with lower dispatchability than the 170. Want to get laid off fast... spend millions on a plane that can not go a to b without a team of mechs standing by to fix the plastic fuwcod parts that fell off on the last flight.

How about taking 7 pax 2200 miles at .78 burning 1700# an hour for an aquisition price of 2.2 Mil. with no calander inspections. These are the kind of numbers that you need to compete with established corp aircraft.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Dude, every airplane has teething problems when it is new. The 145 is a tried and true workhorse now (and the Legacy is a tank for my money), but it wasn't always so when the ERJ first came out. The 170 is *NO* different. They will work through the problems in the software and reliability areas LONG BEFORE the first Corporate 190 ever hits the market.

If it is dead on arrival it is only because the market is saturated with BBJs and ACJs. It has nothing to do with this MYTHOLOGICAL lack of quality on Embraer's part.

I do agree that Embraer has a very airline-centric view of things but they *ARE* changing--and listening to corporate concerns and suggestions. Those of us who fly the Legacy actually were able to get Embraer to change some of the things in the airplane. It took awhile because, as I am told, Brazilians love to learn things for themselves rather than take someone else's word for it, but they DID make significant improvements to the airplane and CONTINUE to do so.

I predict the Phenom will be a bust but that's only because there are four thousand VLJ builders entering the market all at once. It will be like the DC-10 vs L-1011 slugfest where nobody made a nickel at the end of the day.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Oh yeah, who came up with "Lineage" for a name? It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue like "Legacy" does.

 

[G4G5]

Yeah but this thing isn't a airliner with a spiffy interior, its a clean sheet designed corporate jet. How fair is it to lump it in with the WSCoD? Thats like saying a G550 is a piece of crap cause it is the son of the G1.

Grumman put a man on the moon.

The WSCoD put a man in EWR 45 minutes with no luggage and a screaming headache.

 

[G4G5]

Do you fly a Legacy?

Do you have proof that it rattles and shakes at ANY altitude?

Any leg I am empty on you are WELCOME to ride the jumpseat and I will prove you wrong.

Okay then.

Time to change the water in the Bong Cheech.

Sitting in the back between those engines caused 3 filling to pop out due to the vibration and the noise.

FYI, it's no big claim to say your corporate jet is selling at a premium. In this market my Schwinn would be selling at a premium. The guy in the Hanger with us just old his used, 6+ year old, 4000+ hour G5 for more then our money then our G5 went for new.

Dropped my G5 at Gulfstream for an inspection last month. Out front they have 2 G100's. N numbers end in PS, for Part Ship. Talking to the product support folks, they are their for 100% coverage for Domestic AOG service. That's what sells aircraft.

When I break a windshield or whatever, the only words I want to hear is "part is on the way" not press 2 for English.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Grumman put a man on the moon.

The WSCoD put a man in EWR 45 minutes with no luggage and a screaming headache.

now thats funny $hit!!

but you are forgetting G4G5.....that was probably the "S" or "P" version or something, not the "R" version..the "R" and the "M" hold special powers are are what is keeping Legacys at a premium today...

yeah, I agree, that bong water is rancid!

 

[501261]

now thats funny $hit!!

but you are forgetting G4G5.....that was probably the "S" or "P" version or something, not the "R" version..the "R" and the "M" hold special powers are are what is keeping Legacys at a premium today...

yeah, I agree, that bong water is rancid!

See you've got it all wrong, the Legacy lineage goes from the "P" model, to the "O" model, to latest, the "S" model. It's a "POS"

 

[LegacyDriver]

Grumman put a man on the moon.

The WSCoD put a man in EWR 45 minutes with no luggage and a screaming headache.

That, of course, would not be the EMB's fault, but rather the incompetent regional baggage handler...

 

[LegacyDriver]

Time to change the water in the Bong Cheech.

Sitting in the back between those engines caused 3 filling to pop out due to the vibration and the noise.

That's utter fiction. You got any proof or are you just bashing the plane because it's fashionable? Sounds to me like you need a new dentist. Never had a single noise complaint from ANYONE on my airplane EVER.

The jumpseat's open... Just afraid of being proven wrong, I know, I know. Don't let facts stand in the way of a good bashing I always say!

When I break a windshield or whatever, the only words I want to hear is "part is on the way" not press 2 for English.

I don't recall ever breaking a windshield so it hasn't been an issue, and I have always spoken in plain English to all the Embraer reps I have come into contact with. More mythology from the peanut gallery.

 

[LegacyDriver]

now thats funny $hit!!

but you are forgetting G4G5.....that was probably the "S" or "P" version or something, not the "R" version..the "R" and the "M" hold special powers are are what is keeping Legacys at a premium today...

yeah, I agree, that bong water is rancid!

Technically it's the A1P and A1E on the Legacy... I was afraid big numbers might confuse you so I ommitted the "1" and dumped the "A" for the sake of brevity. I know people with ADD have problems focusing on long sentences...

ERJs have A1, A1P, A1/3, and A1E (with all A1s converted to A1P long ago). I can give you the model numbers for each if you like... But then again, I don't know anything about Embraers.

(I appreciate your wit, but a small concession of credit wouldn't kill you guys.)

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Technically it's the A1P and A1E on the Legacy... I was afraid big numbers might confuse you so I ommitted the "1" and dumped the "A" for the sake of brevity. I know people with ADD have problems focusing on long sentences...

ERJs have A1, A1P, A1/3, and A1E (with all A1s converted to A1P long ago). I can give you the model numbers for each if you like... But then again, I don't know anything about Embraers.

(I appreciate your wit, but a small concession of credit wouldn't kill you guys.)

ahhhh...the AiP AIE A1/3 (converted model)

I knew that was what I was missing....

and I said it was a hunk of regional $hit..

silly me! Its the AIE/p converted model that is flying off the shelves!





and yes, we give you ALL the credit in the world as far as Embraer knowledge goes! but we have all had our $129 demo rides from Newark to Cleveland and thats all we need..

 

[LegacyDriver]

There is no comparison in comfort between the ERJ and the Legacy.


The ERJ was loud in the cockpit, of that there is no debate. In the back it was like the CRJ or just about any other airliner.

Embraer realized noise was a problem when it slapped winglets and a fancy interior on the ERJ. These "P" Legacy jets are not what was hoped and everyone said so.

Back to the table...

The "E" engined Legacy (s/ns 686, 699, 730, 809, 825, 854, etc.) comes out with sound and drag reductions that are light years ahead of the ERJ and the "P" Legacy.

Suffering from an unfair reputation (and at the urging of pilots like me) when the FL410 Legacy debuted (s/n 939, etc.) the folks at Embraer further soundproofed the airplane to the point that you wonder if the thing is actually a sim with the sound turned off.

The airplane has undergone dramatic changes and I have watched it firsthand. If you haven't flown one you really have no place to talk, especially not one of the new birds. They are really nice.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Double post.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

the "410 legacy"? WOW!

FL 410? - say it aint so!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Also, FWIW, I am not asking for you to give *me* credit (thanks for it though) but rather to Embraer. I think they deserve praise for their efforts.

 

[GVFlyer]

The airplane has undergone dramatic changes and I have watched it firsthand. If you haven't flown one you really have no place to talk, especially not one of the new birds. They are really nice.

Just putting lipstick on a pig.

GV

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Just putting lipstick on a pig.

GV

I wouldnt insult a pig by calling it a Legacy.

 

[G4G5]

And I would not waste good lipstick on a Legacy

 

[Cessnut]

a better flight is to take off from a 4000ft strip at MTOW and climb straight to 470, clear the weather without a step, have to pull the throttles back within 5 min to prevent overspeed, and travel 1800 NM non stop. The Soverign rules!
I think I remember a flight that didn't turn out so well from a couple of guys trying to get to 410 in a EMB145.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

a better flight is to take off from a 4000ft strip at MTOW and climb straight to 470, clear the weather without a step, have to pull the throttles back within 5 min to prevent overspeed, and travel 1800 NM non stop. The Soverign rules!
I think I remember a flight that didn't turn out so well from a couple of guys trying to get to 410 in a EMB145.

that might have been a CRJ.

same $hit, different regional airliner.

but again, that wasnt the PR6i2-4accr3 model, that one is a real rocketship.

like a sim with the noise shut off.....OH $hit WAIT, thats the engines flamed out dude!