EMB Phenom 300

[Groundpounder]

I'm glad I started such a lively discussion..........lol

Since the 300 won't be around until 2009, and I have a feeling we'll need more of an airplane by then if things keep going like they are. But anyway, I'll let you know what I think.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

I agree with G200 and will add 3 more criteria to the corporate aircraft decision making mix:

Sales - Having experienced sales reps with established relationships and reputations for meeting clients needs.

Marketing - Having products and strategies aimed squarely at meeting the operators needs, along with well executed plans for communicating.

Support - Having after sales support that keeps the customer happy with the decision to buy your product.


Embraer does not have any of those. They are airline focused on all of their strategies, i.e.: DOC, DOC, DOC and Acquisition Cost, Acquisition Cost, Acquisition Cost. Competing on price is the common thread for bottom feeding organizations, be them airline, charter, or OEMs. It is what you do when you have nothing else to offer, or no clue how to deliver and market value to a customer.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Perhaps Embraer needs to hire some Gulfstream, Cessna, and Falcon sales people. Who knows.

But looking at the 190 with respect to your remarks, it seems to fair well. Cabin space? Yep, tons (4085 cubic feet for cabin 615 cubic feet for cargo). Lack of noise? From what I have heard, it is whisper quiet...nothing like the 145. Performance? Pretty good - .82M, FL410, etc (but not a GV of course). Reputation? Remains to be seen for this actual aircraft. Range? 4200 NM (with 8 people on board according to Embraer) - which makes it a very good transcon or NY to London type of aircraft. Auto-throttles, fly-by-wire, CCD, WI-FI, EFB, etc.

-Neal

sounds exactly like a BBJ?

Its dead before it hits the marketplace.

Believe me, Im not HOPING for this, but I am lost to as why people try to push Embraer junk as a competitor to well respected bizjet names.

It can have it all, but at the end of the day its a dressed up South American regional airliner with no value. Its role? possibly as a disposable corporate shuttle for an outfit with a clueless CFO.

Corporations often buy new, run and depriciate aircraft for a few years, sell them when the market is strong, and buy new again.....and often make a profit doing this! -- so much for that "corporate toy" and "first thing to be sold" old school mentality huh?

For example, there is a virtual wait list on used DA900ex aircraft right now, and they are going for top dollar. My guess is the same for late model Gulf/GLEX aircraft also.

I wonder how the Embraer Legacy market is? I bet you can get a new one within 6 months or less for a real bargain. Now try selling it 4 years later. yikes. The number guy making that decision may lose his job!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

sounds exactly like a BBJ?

Its dead before it hits the marketplace.

Believe me, Im not HOPING for this, but I am lost to as why people try to push Embraer junk as a competitor to well respected bizjet names.

It can have it all, but at the end of the day its a dressed up South American regional airliner with no value. Its role? possibly as a disposable corporate shuttle for an outfit with a clueless CFO.

Corporations often buy new, run and depriciate aircraft for a few years, sell them when the market is strong, and buy new again.....and often make a profit doing this!

For example, there is a virtual wait list on used DA900ex aircraft right now, and they are going for top dollar. My guess is the same for late model Gulf/GLEX aircraft also.

I wonder how the Embraer Legacy market is? I bet you can get a new one within 6 months or less for a real bargain. Now try selling it 4 years later. yikes. The number guy making that decision may lose his job!

Well what is the mission of the BBJ versus that of the 190? It is an apples to oranges comparison if that is what you are trying to do - compare them. Unless you are just trying to compare each one to its manufacturer's stated spot in their respective marketplace. The BBJ hasn't worked because its target niche is tiny - long haul luxury travel (at a significant price). The 190 isn't a long haul airplane nor is its acquisition price sky high (from what I know).

I do hear you on the residual value aspect and we both know that solid residual values don't come over night...they come over time from building and supporting proven airframes. Embraer is new at this segment of the industry. And again, I don't think you can lump the Legacy in with the Lineage (190). Apples to oranges here as well.

-Neal

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well what is the mission of the BBJ versus that of the 190? It is an apples to oranges comparison if that is what you are trying to do - compare them. Unless you are just trying to compare each one to its manufacturer's stated spot in their respective marketplace. The BBJ hasn't worked because its target niche is tiny - long haul luxury travel (at a significant price). The 190 isn't a long haul airplane nor is its acquisition price sky high (from what I know).

I do hear you on the residual value aspect and we both know that solid residual values don't come over night...they come over time from building and supporting proven airframes. Embraer is new at this segment of the industry. And again, I don't think you can lump the Legacy in with the Lineage (190). Apples to oranges here as well.

-Neal

fair enough. time will tell.

Neal, I know you have posted here for a long time. Does your profile mean you got the flowthrough from COEX to the mainline?

If so, congrats!

I fight like mad to get on that 777 PHNL service when repositioning for flights through Hawaii. Hands down best First Class of any US carrier.

 

[Herculeus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the BBJ cheaper then a Gulfstream? I thought the problem was people didn't like that you had to find an FBO with stairs?

 

[Groundpounder]

I think the BBJ is more, and it has its own stairs. The problem is finding a hangar big enough for it.

 

[LegacyDriver]

does it rattle and shake and struggle along at FL290 like the rest of the POS WSCoD line?

"Rattle and shake" ??? Dude, please, PLEASE lay down the crackpipe and STEP AWAY FROM IT.

 

[LegacyDriver]

For example, there is a virtual wait list on used DA900ex aircraft right now, and they are going for top dollar. My guess is the same for late model Gulf/GLEX aircraft also.

I wonder how the Embraer Legacy market is? I bet you can get a new one within 6 months or less for a real bargain. Now try selling it 4 years later. yikes. The number guy making that decision may lose his job!

USED Embraers are selling at a PREMIUM right now due to delivery times. I know firsthand on this one.

Embraer does not have a delivery position for a Legacy until I believe Q1 or Q2 2008 (it may be later but I am being conservative here--I believe it was at least 2 years). Thus people who want them now are paying for the used ones and not haggling on price.

It is a good airplane. If you had ever actually flown one you'd know that.

I love you guys and I'm all for a good laugh, but at *SOME* point objective discourse has to come into play... The constant and unwarranted Embraer bashing is unfair.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"Rattle and shake" ??? Dude, please, PLEASE lay down the crackpipe and STEP AWAY FROM IT.

skull,

do we really need to apply yet another ass whippin' on your WSCoD loving self?

 

[LegacyDriver]

skull,

do we really need to apply another ass whippin to your WSCoD loving self?

Do you fly a Legacy?

Do you have proof that it rattles and shakes at ANY altitude?

Any leg I am empty on you are WELCOME to ride the jumpseat and I will prove you wrong.

Okay then.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Do you fly a Legacy?

Do you have proof that it rattles and shakes at ANY altitude?

Any leg I am empty on you are WELCOME to join me on the jumpseat and I will prove you wrong.

Okay then.

thanks but no thanks.

we have all experienced the legendary Embraer quality on one too many regional airline legs.

You can put down a few nice seats and a nice carpet and call it a "Legacy" but its still the same POS....hence its success as a corporate aircraft!

 

[LegacyDriver]

thanks but no thanks.

we have all experienced the legendary Embraer quality on one too many regional airline legs.

You can put down a few nice seats and a nice carpet and call it a "Legacy" but its still the same POS....hence its success as a corporate aircraft!

Sounds like someone is afraid to be proven wrong.

POS? Where do you get off calling it a POS? Got any substantive evidence? I guess you've never even been inside a Legacy so that makes the request impossible to comply with.

Come on GS, you are better than that.

The Legacy is very successful. By mid-2008 they'll have close to 100 out there. For minimal investment that's a success, particularly in light of all the unwarranted bashing done by a lot of ignorant (in the sense of never having flown one, rather only knowing it second-hand) pilots/pundits.

The Embraer quality on Regional Airline legs only proves the soundness of the basic design. The airplane gets pounded into the ground daily and keeps going without complaint. In the corporate world this airplane isn't even breaking a sweat, and there is no dedicated corporate jet around that can take "Regional Airline" abuse... That doesn't stop folks from trying, but they wind up in the Citation Service Center, etc. etc. quite a lot as a result.

The airplane has its virtues and being DURABLE and RELIABLE is definitely high on that list. The price for this durability in my opinion comes in the payload department, but there's still plenty to accomplish a wide array of missions.

The "E" FL410 Legacy is a far cry from the misguided "P" Legacy. It's actually a vast improvement over the "E" FL390 airplanes, for that matter. Many upgrades. Embraer is learning and getting better. Give them some credit.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

ahhhh, should have know....

Its the "E" model, not the "P" model.

Silly me!

 

[LegacyDriver]

ahhhh, should have know....

Its the "E" model, not the "P" model.

Silly me!

Further proof that, though you may know more about every other facet of aviation than I, when it comes to the Legacy you don't.

 

[Groundpounder]

WHO CARES, ITS JUST AN AIRPLANE!

Is the Legacy REALLY that bad that you need to continue to bash it? Yeah maybe it isn't the best corporate aircraft ever, but they aren't falling out of the sky or running off the ends of runways. Direct all that negative energy towards something more deserving like the MU-2 or the AN-28.

 

[Cessnut]

I sat in the mock up of the 100 and noticed a few "airline" like features: Plastic interior parts, cheap trim and carpet etc... after spending some time with it, I realized that you do indeed tend to get what you pay for. The numbers on paper look good, but things we can't see on paper are things like loading envelope restrictions (which Embraer is notoriously bad about), life limited component terms, etc... Until it's actually out there flying, it's still a paper airplane. Another small turn off I had was the yoke. I like to feel the airplane inputs with my fingers, seemed like I was riding a Harley instead. Not the most ergonomical design IMO.
History and established service records are another point of concern for me. If I needed maintenance at GA airport, what does their service center network look like. Am I going to have to have it flown clear across the country? Brazil? New airplanes have a lot of work before they can get themselves established. I give the airplane 7 years to fully develop if it is a success...and I doubt that it will be when the owner has to say yes to the question at his lunch meeting; "Oh, an Embraer,...Don't they make commuters too"

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

It can have it all, but at the end of the day its a dressed up South American regional airliner with no value. Its role? possibly as a disposable corporate shuttle for an outfit with a clueless CFO.

Sure sounds a Pfizer zinger to me.....

Mr. I.

 

[Ha!]

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[Ha!]

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