EMB Phenom 300

[Groundpounder]

I know most of you on here hate anything that EMB makes, but has anyone looked at the Phenom 300? My boss is friends with one of the sales guys over at FLL, and we are going to have a dog and pony show sometime in the next few weeks. It seems pretty impressive on paper.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I know most of you on here hate anything that EMB makes, but has anyone looked at the Phenom 300? My boss is friends with one of the sales guys over at FLL, and we are going to have a dog and pony show sometime in the next few weeks. It seems pretty impressive on paper.

does it rattle and shake and struggle along at FL290 like the rest of the POS WSCoD line?

ACJ 319,BBJ,Legacy.....blah blah.

when will they get it? If someone wants to ride in a junk Brazilian $hitcan they will flip $79 and go ride Continental Express or Mesa (or whatever)...

WSCoD :smash:

just say no.

 

[Groundpounder]

Yeah but this thing isn't a airliner with a spiffy interior, its a clean sheet designed corporate jet. How fair is it to lump it in with the WSCoD? Thats like saying a G550 is a piece of crap cause it is the son of the G1.

 

[Going2Baja]

when will they get it? If someone wants to ride in a junk Brazilian $hitcan they will flip $79 and go ride Continental Express or Mesa (or whatever)...

WSCoD :smash:

just say no.

Now that's funny!! And I'm still trying to figure out the WSCoD..Hmmmnnnn

Baja.

 

[SabreFlyR]

Yeah but this thing isn't a airliner with a spiffy interior, its a clean sheet designed corporate jet. How fair is it to lump it in with the WSCoD? Thats like saying a G550 is a piece of crap cause it is the son of the G1.

We took a serious look at the 300 and decided against it. Looks like it will be a good plane as long as it lives up to whats on paper. Power won't be a problem with the PW530 putting out 3200lbs of thrust and baggage for 8 will be easy with that huge baggage compartment. Big problem I had with it was the Garmin Avionics are right out of a 172, no dme or adf, they're optional as is a lot of the avionics that should be standard on that plane(tcas, rnp, vnav etc). They are using that Garmin traffic system that only works in terminal areas and I had to explain that this system would do no good to someone like us who operates outside the US. Once I added up the options we needed, including thrust reversers, the price was around $7.4 million.

I did like that the deice will be bleed air and will have single point fueling.

Remember your talking about an unproven design, I told my owner that if we did it we should go for a serial number after 100 to let them work out the problems before we got ours.

I must admit I am glad he, the owner decided he didn't want it either, felt it was better to go with a proven aircraft.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Now that's funny!! And I'm still trying to figure out the WSCoD..Hmmmnnnn

Baja.

NEW GUY!

Whistlin'
$hit
Can
of
Death

a fi.com classic! - its the phrase that nearly pushed SKULL ONE over the edge! a lot of mileage was had over this one during a slow time here.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Yeah but this thing isn't a airliner with a spiffy interior, its a clean sheet designed corporate jet. How fair is it to lump it in with the WSCoD? Thats like saying a G550 is a piece of crap cause it is the son of the G1.

Gulfstream / Grumman was always known to make rock solid aircraft right back to the G1. The only blemish they took was relating themselves to the Israeli crap (g200 etc)

Embraer was always known to make $hitty, noisy, cramped regional jets.

This could very well be a perfect aircraft but IMHO it will never sell, simply by its name and marketing problems. Embraer means Legacy and Regional Jet - two things you dont want to think about when looking for corp aircraft.

Maybe they are banking on this "personal jet" thing? but I still see that guy buying a little toy Citation first...

Buenos Suerte Embraer!

 

[SabreFlyR]

Gulfstream / Grumman was always known to make rock solid aircraft right back to the G1. The only blemish they took was relating themselves to the Israeli crap (g200 etc)

Embraer was always known to make $hitty, noisy, cramped regional jets.

This could very well be a perfect aircraft but IMHO it will never sell, simply by its name and marketing problems. Embraer means Legacy and Regional Jet - two things you dont want to think about when looking for corp aircraft.

Maybe they are banking on this "personal jet" thing? but I still see that guy buying a little toy Citation first...

Buenos Suerte Embraer!

Your correct here, after talking the sales guy it was obvious that they don't have a clue how to market this airplane to corporate operators.

 

[Going2Baja]

NEW GUY!

Whistlin'
$hit
Can
of
Death

a fi.com classic! - its the phrase that nearly pushed SKULL ONE over the edge! a lot of mileage was had over this one during a slow time here.

Classssssssssic!!!! However the 727 made much more noise than the Brasila.

Baja.

 

["GO AROUND"]

WSCoD = EMB 145/135? The 120 didn't go fast enough to whistle. It might be shortened to SCoD cause it had a bad rep for a while in the beginning. I fortunately flew it after they fixed those probs.

 

[AA717driver]

The only blemish they took was relating themselves to the Israeli crap (g200 etc)

I'm guessing that was a multi-layered government-to-government deal that was beneficial to ALL concerned.

The pig had the lipstick applied. Now G is doing a lot of nip-tuck and I'm guessing there will be a total redesign in a few years or the whole schmear will be sold off. JMO.TC

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I'm guessing that was a multi-layered government-to-government deal that was beneficial to ALL concerned.

The pig had the lipstick applied. Now G is doing a lot of nip-tuck and I'm guessing there will be a total redesign in a few years or the whole schmear will be sold off. JMO.TC

T

Im sure you are 100% right!

I think the only one who took it in the arse was the consumer, and who cares about them!

 

[El Bucho]

Yeah but this thing isn't a airliner with a spiffy interior, its a clean sheet designed corporate jet. How fair is it to lump it in with the WSCoD? Thats like saying a G550 is a piece of crap cause it is the son of the G1.

20 bucks says it still has Brasilia windshields

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

The C5 is a whistler....Soon not to be when they take out the TF39C and replace em with the CF6s. No more familiar whistle from Fred.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Let's be practical here. Do you really want to go around the rest of your flying career saying either "Phenom" or "Embraer" on the radio? That alone would be a deal killer for me! (now Gulfstream, that just sounds classy)

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Gulfstream / Grumman was always known to make rock solid aircraft right back to the G1. The only blemish they took was relating themselves to the Israeli crap (g200 etc)

Embraer was always known to make $hitty, noisy, cramped regional jets.

This could very well be a perfect aircraft but IMHO it will never sell, simply by its name and marketing problems. Embraer means Legacy and Regional Jet - two things you dont want to think about when looking for corp aircraft.

Maybe they are banking on this "personal jet" thing? but I still see that guy buying a little toy Citation first...

Buenos Suerte Embraer!

Would you say the same thing about the EMB-190? How about the new EMB-190 Business Jet?

The 145 has its limitations (it was never designed to compete with a Gulfstream) but each iteration of it was better than the previous version...culminating in the 145XR (winglet version that only XJT has) which is actually a really nice performing airplane and does a great job at the mission it was designed to do (and does so with a 99.9% controllable completion factor...50 pax...2000lbs cargo....80M cruise...1500 to 1800 FPM climb all the way to FL370 (with no step climb).

That all said, the 190 is in a whole 'nother class than the 145...The 190 isn't a "regional jet" and has better performance capabilities, DOC's, and passenger comfort than an A319 or 737-500/600.

And I also actually think the Phenom will do quite well also. Time will tell of course.

-Neal

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Would you say the same thing about the EMB-190? How about the new EMB-190 Business Jet?

The 145 has its limitations (it was never designed to compete with a Gulfstream) but each iteration of it was better than the previous version...culminating in the 145XR (winglet version that only XJT has) which is actually a really nice performing airplane and does a great job at the mission it was designed to do (and does so with a 99.9% controllable completion factor...50 pax...2000lbs cargo....80M cruise...1500 to 1800 FPM climb all the way to FL370 (with no step climb).

That all said, the 190 is in a whole 'nother class than the 145...The 190 isn't a "regional jet" and has better performance capabilities, DOC's, and passenger comfort than an A319 or 737-500/600.

And I also actually think the Phenom will do quite well also. Time will tell of course.

-Neal

I hope it does well. More airplanes means more jobs as far as Im concerned.

My point was that Embreaer makes $hit. I have ridden in enough noisy regional $hit made by them to make that statement. A terd is a terd no matter how much lipstick you slap on it.

Its safe to say it wont cut it in the corp. world. Being able ot climb unrestricted to FL370 just wont sell that WSCoD.

IMHO - If you say you aren't competing with Gulfstream, Dassault, and Bombardier the dont even attempt to enter the market!

Unfortunatly, it does not take a genius to see it having the same fate as the BBJ, the Legacy, and the 319CJ.

There is a reason.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I hope it does well. More airplanes means more jobs as far as Im concerned.

My point was that Embreaer makes $hit. I have ridden in enough noisy regional $hit made by them to make that statement. A terd is a terd no matter how much lipstick you slap on it.

Its safe to say it wont cut it in the corp. world. Being able ot climb unrestricted to FL370 just wont sell that WSCoD.

IMHO - If you say you aren't competing with Gulfstream, Dassault, and Bombardier the dont even attempt to enter the market!

Unfortunatly, it does not take a genius to see it having the same fate as the BBJ, the Legacy, and the 319CJ.

There is a reason.

I wasn't arguing the 145 as a corporate platform. What I WAS saying is that the 190 (airline or business platform) is a MUCH different airplane than the 190. What I was also saying is that the 145 has, more or less, accomplished the mission it was designed for as an airline platform. Had oil not shot to 2x or 3x what it was when the aircraft were all ordered, it would have even been more successful. What you and I view as a "nice airplane" from the cockpit doesn't necessarily always pan out to "nice airplane" from the balance sheet and income statement perspective and at the end of the day, that is all that matters.

That all said, the Phenom will be competing against the Mustang and the Eclipse (and maybe a few other small jets) - not the Gulfstream. The 190 business jet will compete against other large jets that were designed for 2500-3000nm missions. Time will tell if either of these new ventures are successful. I'm not arguing one way or the other since neither really affects my career path (with the exception that I think VLJ's will become the airway plug of the sky...reducing air traffic movement abilities nationwide). I do like to at least offer a counter-opinion at times.

Lastly, if you are an airline manager and need a 90-110 seat jet to replace your DC-9/737 size airframe...why wouldn't you want to go with an aircraft that has 25% less DOC, better passenger comfort/ergonomics/space, and better performance than the DC-9/737-500 product? I think you will find that JetBlue is working out the teething issues on this aircraft (never buy the A model of anything) and then DL, NW, and others will follow suit and be very happy with this new generation of 100 seat jet (as an airline platform...who knows if it will work as a corporate platform).

-Neal

 

[Gulfstream 200]

What you and I view as a "nice airplane" from the cockpit doesn't necessarily always pan out to "nice airplane" from the balance sheet and income statement perspective and at the end of the day, that is all that matters.

-Neal

for the airlines, yes. Not for corporate. The cockpit has very little input on the decision. Cabin space, lack of noise, performance, reputation, range, and resale value/market sell corporate aircraft - not aquisition pricetags.

IMHO - Embraer best lose the airline mentality/stink if they want to sell corporate planes.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

for the airlines, yes. Not for corporate. The cockpit has very little input on the decision. Cabin space, lack of noise, perfromance, reputation, range, and resale value/market sell corporate aircraft - not aquisition pricetags.

IMHO - Embraer better lose the airline mentality if they want to sell corporate planes.

Perhaps Embraer needs to hire some Gulfstream, Cessna, and Falcon sales people. Who knows.

But looking at the 190 with respect to your remarks, it seems to fair well. Cabin space? Yep, tons (4085 cubic feet for cabin 615 cubic feet for cargo). Lack of noise? From what I have heard, it is whisper quiet...nothing like the 145. Performance? Pretty good - .82M, FL410, etc (but not a GV of course). Reputation? Remains to be seen for this actual aircraft. Range? 4200 NM (with 8 people on board according to Embraer) - which makes it a very good transcon or NY to London type of aircraft. Auto-throttles, fly-by-wire, CCD, WI-FI, EFB, etc.

-Neal