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EJ Fleet
- Thread starter Answerguy
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Survery says............
75 Ultras
4 Encores
29 Excels
14 VIIs
58 Xs
28 DA2000A
25 800XP
27 BAe 1000
5 BBJs
37 GIV SPs
8 GVs
Total: 310
Total when orders are complete 1009!
G200s start in June (100)
Horizons and Sovereigns in 2004 (100 each)
Answerguy,
Can you return the favor?
What's the tally over at FLOP/TA?
75 Ultras
4 Encores
29 Excels
14 VIIs
58 Xs
28 DA2000A
25 800XP
27 BAe 1000
5 BBJs
37 GIV SPs
8 GVs
Total: 310
Total when orders are complete 1009!
G200s start in June (100)
Horizons and Sovereigns in 2004 (100 each)
Answerguy,
Can you return the favor?
What's the tally over at FLOP/TA?
Last edited:
Diesel said:
802 and 804 are about to come out of completion.
We still have PMs for the G200, with no official cancellation and they are still advertised on netjets.com.
If we were to cancel the G200s, you know we would be ordering another 100 aircraft from someone in a hurry. I bet Dassault would cut as a deal on a few Falcons that are now available.
EJA question
I noticed that GIV's and GV's were included in the fleet. Are those EJA aircraft or EJI? I understand there is a HUGE difference in pay at EJI. Is this true? If so, why? Does one application count for both EJA and EJI? Pardon the ignorance but I am a military guy and am just now getting excited about the fractional world. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I noticed that GIV's and GV's were included in the fleet. Are those EJA aircraft or EJI? I understand there is a HUGE difference in pay at EJI. Is this true? If so, why? Does one application count for both EJA and EJI? Pardon the ignorance but I am a military guy and am just now getting excited about the fractional world. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Mach92
Well-known member
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- Dec 3, 2001
- Posts
- 315
The GIV's and GV's are all EJI. Guys include them in the fleet total because they company does also. Its a selling point to potential owners. They are dispatched right out of the same room as we (EJA) are in columbus. CAN WE SAY SCOPE? If a X breaks or even an ultra for that matter. If there is a free GIV & GV somewhere guess what? They fly the trip and the onwer is like WOW!! EJA prides themself on customer service (which is why I love this place). However I think we should be one senority list. EJI planes cover EJA trips and visa versa. Its called upgrading the owner. Netjets is like AMR, EJI and EJA are seperate companies BUT we are under one roof. Do most pilots like this NO. There is a push to have one list and one big company. I have heard that Warren Buffet is now asking "why are they seperate pilot groups and pay"? Starting pay is like 65K at EJI for a GIV F/O and Capt pay (I think ) is 85K to start. There pilots have the same issues we do. They want more pay (NBAA standards) and a better life on the road.
EJA/EJI
"However I think we should be one senority list. EJI planes cover EJA trips and visa versa."
My understanding was that Gulfstream, at the time that EJI was started, would not supply aircraft to a company at which the pilots were unionized. I have no idea why this was the case, but it is what I was told by an HR person at Gulfstream.
"However I think we should be one senority list. EJI planes cover EJA trips and visa versa."
My understanding was that Gulfstream, at the time that EJI was started, would not supply aircraft to a company at which the pilots were unionized. I have no idea why this was the case, but it is what I was told by an HR person at Gulfstream.
GVFlyer
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- Feb 22, 2002
- Posts
- 1,461
>>>My understanding was that Gulfstream, at the time that EJI was started, would not supply aircraft to a company at which the pilots were unionized.
I don't know about this, but I do know that Gulfstream is a non-union shop and the good ole boys on the shop floor don't cotton to union folk. They run off them union boys everytime they come down to Savannah and try to organize the work force.
I don't know about this, but I do know that Gulfstream is a non-union shop and the good ole boys on the shop floor don't cotton to union folk. They run off them union boys everytime they come down to Savannah and try to organize the work force.
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bizjet737
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"My understanding was that Gulfstream, at the time that EJI was started, would not supply aircraft to a company at which the pilots were unionized."
yes, this is true and one of the reasons for forming a separate, non-union company (eji).
this structure could be chaninging, however, in the next year or so. buffet has made numerous comments that he wants everything under one roof. we'll see what happens after our contract is finished.
yes, this is true and one of the reasons for forming a separate, non-union company (eji).
this structure could be chaninging, however, in the next year or so. buffet has made numerous comments that he wants everything under one roof. we'll see what happens after our contract is finished.
GVFlyer
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"My understanding was that Gulfstream, at the time that EJI was started, would not supply aircraft to a company at which the pilots were unionized."
This is, of course, nonsense. I was being facetious with my previous post. Gulfstream will sell airplanes to anyone that can pass their Dunn and Bradstreet requirements. The only limitations on Gulfstream sales are imposed externally by the Department of State to prevent technology transfers or sales to embargoed nations.
The participation Gulfstream had in the establishment of EJI was the provision of "core" aircraft (sns.1099,1210,1032) and their sales and marketing agreement. That agreement reads that EJI will sell fractional ownership of Gulfstream Aircraft to "Concept Buyers" and those presently owning mid- sized cabin aircraft or smaller. Gulfstream, through their Gulfstream Shares Program will sell shares of Gulfstreams to owners of large cabin aircraft.
It was EJA's Richard Santulli and Vince Santulli then at Montvale, Jim Jacobs in Connecticut, and Richard Smith in Columbus that determined that EJI would have the best chance of being successful by being non-union.
They were right. I have never met an EJI pilot who wasn't happy with his job. Everybody in the company has a voice. Small groups are organized with a Cell Leader who communicates complaints, suggestions and any other concern up to Joe Murphy and Bill Noe. Joe and Bill's leadership style is to gain concensus, and to work with the pilots who work for them. Bill was a college athlete and Olympic contender who brought his team-player skills to his position at EJI.
EJI has been wildly successful in terms of sales and by their estimates only half-way there with 230 pilots and 45 Gulfstreams. This is occuring at the same time that FlexJet and RTA are steadily losing money. I don't think Warren Buffet became rich by fixing things that weren't broken.
This is, of course, nonsense. I was being facetious with my previous post. Gulfstream will sell airplanes to anyone that can pass their Dunn and Bradstreet requirements. The only limitations on Gulfstream sales are imposed externally by the Department of State to prevent technology transfers or sales to embargoed nations.
The participation Gulfstream had in the establishment of EJI was the provision of "core" aircraft (sns.1099,1210,1032) and their sales and marketing agreement. That agreement reads that EJI will sell fractional ownership of Gulfstream Aircraft to "Concept Buyers" and those presently owning mid- sized cabin aircraft or smaller. Gulfstream, through their Gulfstream Shares Program will sell shares of Gulfstreams to owners of large cabin aircraft.
It was EJA's Richard Santulli and Vince Santulli then at Montvale, Jim Jacobs in Connecticut, and Richard Smith in Columbus that determined that EJI would have the best chance of being successful by being non-union.
They were right. I have never met an EJI pilot who wasn't happy with his job. Everybody in the company has a voice. Small groups are organized with a Cell Leader who communicates complaints, suggestions and any other concern up to Joe Murphy and Bill Noe. Joe and Bill's leadership style is to gain concensus, and to work with the pilots who work for them. Bill was a college athlete and Olympic contender who brought his team-player skills to his position at EJI.
EJI has been wildly successful in terms of sales and by their estimates only half-way there with 230 pilots and 45 Gulfstreams. This is occuring at the same time that FlexJet and RTA are steadily losing money. I don't think Warren Buffet became rich by fixing things that weren't broken.
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BBJPILOT
Active member
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- Mar 24, 2002
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- 35
Facts vs Rumor
Richard Santulli and Ted Forestman founded the "Gulfstream Shares" program as a joint marketing effort to sell MORE Gee whiz. At the time EJA had orders with multiple manufacturers and Gulfstream,
as later did Boeing, wanted a piece of the fractional pie.
Now, as for the Union issue. We were told, repeatedly, by both Richard Santulli, his boy Orlinski, and Smith, that Ted Forestman hated Unions and would not "do the deal" if EJA was going to operate them. Gulfstream was notorious for this attitude.
Now that being said, there may be truth to it or not. If not, then you see the moral standard by which to judge.
But, in the end, the EJI operation was left to it's operation as a DIRECT result of the last EJA contract (viewable at www.ejapilots.com) where the pilots of EJA released the Gulfstream Operation as long as the Company would agree to a scope clause that required all future aircraft to be flown by EJA (Union) pilots, scope clause, section 1.
The Boeing and a host of other future fractional aircraft were protected work under the new scope, and for a good faith agreement, the IBT would not simply seek to bring in EJI under a "Single Carrier Representation Dispute" with the NMB ala American Eagle. Such an option is still very much possible should management try to "get around" the intent and promises contained within the contract. So far they have not.
But make no mistake, four senior management types (Santulli, Orlinski, Jacobs, and Smith)for over several years "blamed" the non-union thing on Forestman. We however, didn't really believe it, and preserved our single carrier option as the ace in the hole!
Richard Santulli and Ted Forestman founded the "Gulfstream Shares" program as a joint marketing effort to sell MORE Gee whiz. At the time EJA had orders with multiple manufacturers and Gulfstream,
as later did Boeing, wanted a piece of the fractional pie.
Now, as for the Union issue. We were told, repeatedly, by both Richard Santulli, his boy Orlinski, and Smith, that Ted Forestman hated Unions and would not "do the deal" if EJA was going to operate them. Gulfstream was notorious for this attitude.
Now that being said, there may be truth to it or not. If not, then you see the moral standard by which to judge.
But, in the end, the EJI operation was left to it's operation as a DIRECT result of the last EJA contract (viewable at www.ejapilots.com) where the pilots of EJA released the Gulfstream Operation as long as the Company would agree to a scope clause that required all future aircraft to be flown by EJA (Union) pilots, scope clause, section 1.
The Boeing and a host of other future fractional aircraft were protected work under the new scope, and for a good faith agreement, the IBT would not simply seek to bring in EJI under a "Single Carrier Representation Dispute" with the NMB ala American Eagle. Such an option is still very much possible should management try to "get around" the intent and promises contained within the contract. So far they have not.
But make no mistake, four senior management types (Santulli, Orlinski, Jacobs, and Smith)for over several years "blamed" the non-union thing on Forestman. We however, didn't really believe it, and preserved our single carrier option as the ace in the hole!
GVFlyer
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I assume you're talking about former Chairman Teddy Forstmann who with Forstmann-Little held 22% of Gulfstream stock prior to it's merger with General Dynamics in July, 1999. Forstmann oversaw and approved the deal brokered by Bill Boisture, current Gulfstream CEO and GD VP for Aviation, and Raynor Reavis, current NetJets VP for sales( then a G'stream VP) with Richard Santulli. David Orlinski's role, as NetJets Chief Counsel, would have been that of a lawyer.
It's time for a reality check. Businesses exist to make money, they are not philanthropic organizations, they're not there to offer full employment or to achieve philosophical ends. Gulfstream is in the business of building and selling aircraft. At Gulfstream, like any other business, there is no room for emotionalism or sentiment , they simply want to sell as many airplanes as they can manufacture and it doesn't matter to whom.
Gulfstream was not in a position to control anything that Executive Jet did. The original 1995 deal was for EJI to purchase 12 G-IV's with options for additional aircraft. The current total of orders and deliveries is 68 jets. When Executive Jet purchased the Boeings, they broke their contract with Gulfstream that specified that Executive Jet would not enter into a sales agreement with a large body Gulfstream competitor. But what was Gulfstream to do? How to you spank your largest customer? Do you tell them that you're not going to sell them anymore airplanes? Not hardly. In the end they did nothing.
It's time for a reality check. Businesses exist to make money, they are not philanthropic organizations, they're not there to offer full employment or to achieve philosophical ends. Gulfstream is in the business of building and selling aircraft. At Gulfstream, like any other business, there is no room for emotionalism or sentiment , they simply want to sell as many airplanes as they can manufacture and it doesn't matter to whom.
Gulfstream was not in a position to control anything that Executive Jet did. The original 1995 deal was for EJI to purchase 12 G-IV's with options for additional aircraft. The current total of orders and deliveries is 68 jets. When Executive Jet purchased the Boeings, they broke their contract with Gulfstream that specified that Executive Jet would not enter into a sales agreement with a large body Gulfstream competitor. But what was Gulfstream to do? How to you spank your largest customer? Do you tell them that you're not going to sell them anymore airplanes? Not hardly. In the end they did nothing.
Muddauber
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- Mar 27, 2002
- Posts
- 112
Mach92 said:
Listen up, moron. He said if it ain't broke don't fix it. He doesn't work for EJI so he can't support one list or 20. He just said that the guys at EJI were a bunch of happy campers. The pilots at EJI could have joined a union company if they wanted, but they didn't. Why screw with them? I think you EJA guys are just jealous.
EJI question
This stuff is all really good. I am certainly becoming very educated on the history of the EJA/EJI relationship. But, as tends to happen with this new flightinfo.com format, we have digressed a bit from some of the questions/answers that people really want to know.
I am probably just a little ignorant when it comes to non-military operations but why do two organizations who belong to the same parent company, fly the same customers in the same market have a difference of over $35,000 in starting pay? I realize Gulfstream aircraft are larger than and have a longer range than most of the EJA aircraft but am I the only one who doesn't understand this pay disparity.
Thanks for the info!
This stuff is all really good. I am certainly becoming very educated on the history of the EJA/EJI relationship. But, as tends to happen with this new flightinfo.com format, we have digressed a bit from some of the questions/answers that people really want to know.
I am probably just a little ignorant when it comes to non-military operations but why do two organizations who belong to the same parent company, fly the same customers in the same market have a difference of over $35,000 in starting pay? I realize Gulfstream aircraft are larger than and have a longer range than most of the EJA aircraft but am I the only one who doesn't understand this pay disparity.
Thanks for the info!
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