MauleSkinner
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MauleSkinner said:The guys that I know who landed gear up followed the checklist...the company pulled the CVR, and sure enough, there it was..."Gear down"..."gear down, 3 green".
Guess that's what 80+ duty hours in 4 days can do to you
Fly safe!
David
Is that really following the checklist, or is it just going through the motions?
-mini
There are many ways of accomplishing a checklist, but perhaps the most common mistake, as the saying goes, is using it as a "do" list. Merely because something has been accomplished IAW the checklist doesn't mean it's been done, and it should be individually verified and checked anyway.
Landing gear and flaps should always be two calls...each pilot should be making the call. If it's a single pilot cockpit, then that pilot needs to keep making the call.
Even when flying single pilot, I still do the checklist out loud, and I still do it as though someone where there with me. I do it challenge and response...I read the challenge, verify that it's done, and respond verbally. I find that this exercise helps ensure that I'm really it, vs. skipping down the checklist. In a single pilot airplane that has a CVR, I also find it ensures I'm on record as having at least performed the checklist.
I know a crew that destroyed a P2V after landing. They had a gear emergency, and utilized some of the best minds in the industry, some of the most knowledgeable people on the planet with respect to that airplane, to resolve it in flight. They did everything, and then some, and determined that the gear was down, and landed. A crew drove onto the runway, did a visual inspection, followed them to the ramp. No problems at all. On shut down, the left main gear retracted back into the nacelle, the left prop hit the ground, the radome was crushed, and the fuselage broken in half. Part of the prop nearly decapitated the assistant director of maintenance, who was standing nearby.
With all those minds involved, all the manuals, all the paperwork, all the references available to the flight crew and the ground crew...the one thing they all missed was the checklist item that required them to pin the gear after landing, before engine shutdown. As the hydraulic pressure bled off and could no longer hold the gear, it slowly retracted, and the aircraft was destroyed. Nobody got hurt...but one little checklist item would have made all the difference.
Just like every accident or incident...usually just one little weak link in the chain.
For the want of a nail, a horseshoe was lost. For the want of a horseshoe, a horse was lost. For the want of a horse, a rider was lost. For the want of a rider, a battle was lost. For the want of a battle, a war was lost. For the want of a war, a nation was lost, and all for the want of a horse shoe nail.
Little things, big effects.
Landing gear and flaps should always be two calls...each pilot should be making the call. If it's a single pilot cockpit, then that pilot needs to keep making the call.
Even when flying single pilot, I still do the checklist out loud, and I still do it as though someone where there with me. I do it challenge and response...I read the challenge, verify that it's done, and respond verbally. I find that this exercise helps ensure that I'm really it, vs. skipping down the checklist. In a single pilot airplane that has a CVR, I also find it ensures I'm on record as having at least performed the checklist.
I know a crew that destroyed a P2V after landing. They had a gear emergency, and utilized some of the best minds in the industry, some of the most knowledgeable people on the planet with respect to that airplane, to resolve it in flight. They did everything, and then some, and determined that the gear was down, and landed. A crew drove onto the runway, did a visual inspection, followed them to the ramp. No problems at all. On shut down, the left main gear retracted back into the nacelle, the left prop hit the ground, the radome was crushed, and the fuselage broken in half. Part of the prop nearly decapitated the assistant director of maintenance, who was standing nearby.
With all those minds involved, all the manuals, all the paperwork, all the references available to the flight crew and the ground crew...the one thing they all missed was the checklist item that required them to pin the gear after landing, before engine shutdown. As the hydraulic pressure bled off and could no longer hold the gear, it slowly retracted, and the aircraft was destroyed. Nobody got hurt...but one little checklist item would have made all the difference.
Just like every accident or incident...usually just one little weak link in the chain.
For the want of a nail, a horseshoe was lost. For the want of a horseshoe, a horse was lost. For the want of a horse, a rider was lost. For the want of a rider, a battle was lost. For the want of a battle, a war was lost. For the want of a war, a nation was lost, and all for the want of a horse shoe nail.
Little things, big effects.
philo beddoe
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Minitour, as a pilot who has never landed gear up, and who has a lot of single pilot experience, I can tell you that you are criticizing people whose jobs you do not yet totally understand. You see the clinical training environment where it is usually easy to do everything to standards and where it is rare for an error to go uncorrected. After hours at the yoke in bad weather by yourself and with no autopilot, it could be very easy for even an important thing to slip. Your day doing something dumb in the cockpit will come, as it has for most of us. You will probably catch it in time and it will be uneventful. You will, hopefully, recall your very judgemental post here and realize that even a flawless aviator such as yourself can make errors. This is called maturing.
I'm not trying to bust your balls here, just pointing out that it is easy to snipe from the sidelines about a job that you have not done yourself. Wait a while, you will make plenty of mistakes in your career.
I'm not trying to bust your balls here, just pointing out that it is easy to snipe from the sidelines about a job that you have not done yourself. Wait a while, you will make plenty of mistakes in your career.
flydrummer
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I'm not critcizing. Just adding to the "There are those that have, and those that will".
I don't agree with that at all.
To say that 100% of pilots either have or will land gear up is a pretty tongue-in-cheek statement...just like "and those that use checklists". I guess that wasn't recieved like that.
It is my belief, however, that using checklists will enhance your chances to not land gear up.
Anywho...don't take my comments as a slam. I'll be the first to admit mistakes happen. I'm just trying to ingrain the importance of using checklists...all the time no matter what kind of equipment you're flying. From a big heavy to a little cub...use the checklist. It helps to minimize the mistakes. That's my message.
However, the comment about people landing gear up after saying "gear down three green" I stand behind 100%. If the gear handle was still up when they grinded to a halt, then yes...they were going through the motions...not using a checklist. Other than that, how many 100s of things can go wrong with a gear system? I can think of 10 things right away on a 172RG...and it's a light trainer! But not putting the handle down and then actually checking for 3 green...I don't know...mistakes happen, but that's a pretty big'un.
Your after school special is over...
-mini
I don't agree with that at all.
To say that 100% of pilots either have or will land gear up is a pretty tongue-in-cheek statement...just like "and those that use checklists". I guess that wasn't recieved like that.
It is my belief, however, that using checklists will enhance your chances to not land gear up.
Anywho...don't take my comments as a slam. I'll be the first to admit mistakes happen. I'm just trying to ingrain the importance of using checklists...all the time no matter what kind of equipment you're flying. From a big heavy to a little cub...use the checklist. It helps to minimize the mistakes. That's my message.
However, the comment about people landing gear up after saying "gear down three green" I stand behind 100%. If the gear handle was still up when they grinded to a halt, then yes...they were going through the motions...not using a checklist. Other than that, how many 100s of things can go wrong with a gear system? I can think of 10 things right away on a 172RG...and it's a light trainer! But not putting the handle down and then actually checking for 3 green...I don't know...mistakes happen, but that's a pretty big'un.
Your after school special is over...
-mini
SkyBoy1981
Bring a towel!
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EagleRJ
Are we there yet?
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Most turbine aircraft have all sorts of bells and whistles that go off before they will let you land gear up. GPWS "Too low, Gear" aural warning off the radio altimeter, configuration warning with landing flaps selected, and finally a horn when the thrust levers are retarded. I would assume the VLJs are similar.
Who knows how much of that was operational on the test flight. Frequently, non-essential equipment may not be operational, or even installed, on flight test hops. It still all boils down to good pilot practice and multiple cross-checks, and this shows that even a test pilot is vulnerable to the most basic of boo-boos!
Who knows how much of that was operational on the test flight. Frequently, non-essential equipment may not be operational, or even installed, on flight test hops. It still all boils down to good pilot practice and multiple cross-checks, and this shows that even a test pilot is vulnerable to the most basic of boo-boos!
Hugh Johnson
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