Eagle or XJT?

[Flyer1015]

Well i really don't need to do a bunch of math. It is pretty simple.

Eagle:
Most junior captain hired: Aug 1999(S340/DFW)

ExpressJet:
Most junior captain hired: Nov 2004 (EWR)


Yeah your right siucavflight. I guess im the one that dosen't understand upgrade times.

I don't know about you, but this explanation was pretty crystal clear to me:

See again someone who just does not understand upgrade times, yes Eagles is long, but let me try and make this plain english. The shortest CA on the EMB was put there at 8yrs and 9 months. he was hired in 98. Eagle did not hire anyone after 9-11 till midway through 04, that means when the last guy from the 01 hiring class upgrades, the upgrade time will drop 25 months over night. Now also look at AA recalling all of their flowback(flowbies) and we lose almost 400 CA's over the next 15 months(400 senior upgrades means about another 22 months worth of upgrades) So if we are not factoring attrition(which will be picking up due to the majors hiring)we are looking at a 4 year upgrade(still long, but that happens when you work for a good company). Sure I may be off a year in one direction or the other, but do the math, it adds up.

 

[Starscream]

After 9/11, AE furloughed about 300 guys. That created a long hiring freeze. The 7+ yr upgrade is only an unfortunate reality for the current FO's who were hired before 9/11. The first newhire class after 9/11 was 1/19/2004.......a little over 2yrs. 4 months after 9/11. Subtract that from the current 7 1/2 year upgrade, and it's a little over 5 years to the left seat. That's not factoring in flowbacks/flowthrus leaving. Their departure will probably knock the upgrade time to 4-4.5 years. And that should be the time to the left seat for anyone hired after 9/11.

For those of you who aren't in the industry yet and are trying to decide where to go, it is IMPOSSIBLE to plan your future based on today's picture. It'd be like someone who has never follwed sports trying to decide which football team to root for based on who will win the most super bowls in the next 40 years.

If you go to XJT, and the branded flying doesn't work out, or if CAL ultimately shrinks the fleet, you're not going to upgrade in 2 years. It'll be more. What if CAL merges with someone and stops hiring (bringing XJT attrition to a grinding halt), then what? Same could be said for AE, this is very true. You just don't know. What if AMR decides to outsource our flying because we can't staff our airplanes? Our upgrade time will go to 10 years. What is if AMR gives preferential hiring to AE pilots (our longevity/labor costs are the highest in the industry we're constantly told) to AA when they start hiring again? Our upgrade time will be less than 4 years, maybe even less than 3. What if? What if? What if?? My point is there are so many factors in this game that are just too impossible to predict. Look at the overall picture, give some priority to location when choosing a regional (that's another thing, domiciles come and go), but just realize that if there is one thing that isn't guaranteed here, it's upgrade time. Amazing how fast that can change either way.

 

[Dharmesh1231]

heard eagle's hiring 700 pilots this year....are they going in for a major expansion or something

 

[Flyer1015]

heard eagle's hiring 700 pilots this year....are they going in for a major expansion or something

They want to hire 700. But they won't.

Latest (Feb 5th) class had, wait for it...





4 people in that class.


No expansion, no new jets. Attrition and flowbacks being recalled are the two biggies for needing more F/Os.

 

[siucavflight]

After 9/11, AE furloughed about 300 guys. That created a long hiring freeze. The 7+ yr upgrade is only an unfortunate reality for the current FO's who were hired before 9/11. The first newhire class after 9/11 was 1/19/2004.......a little over 2yrs. 4 months after 9/11. Subtract that from the current 7 1/2 year upgrade, and it's a little over 5 years to the left seat. That's not factoring in flowbacks/flowthrus leaving. Their departure will probably knock the upgrade time to 4-4.5 years. And that should be the time to the left seat for anyone hired after 9/11.

For those of you who aren't in the industry yet and are trying to decide where to go, it is IMPOSSIBLE to plan your future based on today's picture. It'd be like someone who has never follwed sports trying to decide which football team to root for based on who will win the most super bowls in the next 40 years.

If you go to XJT, and the branded flying doesn't work out, or if CAL ultimately shrinks the fleet, you're not going to upgrade in 2 years. It'll be more. What if CAL merges with someone and stops hiring (bringing XJT attrition to a grinding halt), then what? Same could be said for AE, this is very true. You just don't know. What if AMR decides to outsource our flying because we can't staff our airplanes? Our upgrade time will go to 10 years. What is if AMR gives preferential hiring to AE pilots (our longevity/labor costs are the highest in the industry we're constantly told) to AA when they start hiring again? Our upgrade time will be less than 4 years, maybe even less than 3. What if? What if? What if?? My point is there are so many factors in this game that are just too impossible to predict. Look at the overall picture, give some priority to location when choosing a regional (that's another thing, domiciles come and go), but just realize that if there is one thing that isn't guaranteed here, it's upgrade time. Amazing how fast that can change either way.

Yep, and 45 upgrades in this bid packet.

A VACANCY/DISPLACEMENT BID IS OPEN EFF <12 FEB 2007>:
*VACANCIES* *ENTER TRAINING NO LATER THAN*
<03 DFW-FO-CRJ <31 AUG 07
<04 ORD-FO-CRJ <31 AUG 07
<07 DFW-CA-EMJ <31 AUG 07
<05 DFW-FO-EMJ <31 AUG 07
<03 LAX-FO-EMJ <31 AUG 07
<23 ORD-CA EMJ <31 AUG 07
<12 ORD-FO-EMJ <31 AUG 07
<03 MIA-FO-ATR <31 AUG 07
<03 SJU-FO-ATR <31 AUG 07
<14 DFW-CA-SF3 <31 AUG 07
<06 DFW-FO-SF3 <31 AUG 07
<01 LAX-CA-SF3 <31 AUG 07
<02 LAX-FO-SF3 <31 AUG 07

 

[Jetlinkin]

did i read the title of this thread correctly?

 

[siucavflight]

did i read the title of this thread correctly?

I think that you get an award for post of the year. You sir get a cookie for your stupidity.

 

[FDAFCFI]

According to the website below your buddies are wrong.

http://www2.atpflightschool.com/AirlinePlacements/

She's the first one under November 2006

That is the the most disturbing site I have ever seen. Whose plane did you borrow to take those pics? I worked with a guy from ATP and he was the biggest braggart, no knowledge flight instructor I have ever met. Cocky cocky cocky to the greatest fault. I know they're not all like that but that really wasn't impressive.

 

[Swaayze]

I think that you get an award for post of the year. You sir get a cookie for your stupidity.

What's so stupid about it? Unless you want to live in an Eagle base why would you hesitate to choose XJT? I think he was implying that this dilemma is really a no-brainer and nobody should have to ask. Trite? Sure, but valid IMO.

 

[Goose Egg]

So, I'm pretty sure that I already know the answer to this question, but I'm just double checking. So say I've been flying along happily at my Boston (or EWR) base for a few years, and then decide that I wanted LAX (or ONT). Could I change? How would that work? It's probably an offensively easy question, but as a 1000 hour idiot CFI, I'm only somewhat familiar with how this whole bidding system works. Someone help me out here.

-Goose

 

[Master Shake]

Of course you can bid for any base in the system (XJET) you want. Based upon your seniority (hire date), you may or may not be awarded a transfer.

Now, to just end this question for you nice and tidy...

ExpressJet branded flying
~$1 beers (slip the FA a $5 and load up for the overnight)
~Crew Meals (free, great qulaity & a real choice as to what you want to eat)
~Next to no sit times - 30 minute turns (less unpaid time in the uniform)

$1 beers man! How can you top that??

 

[Turbosnake03]

Now, to just end this question for you nice and tidy...

ExpressJet branded flying
~$1 beers (slip the FA a $5 and load up for the overnight)
~Crew Meals (free, great qulaity & a real choice as to what you want to eat)
~Next to no sit times - 30 minute turns (less unpaid time in the uniform)

$1 beers man! How can you top that??

plus a 2 year upgrade!! you guys got all of that at Eagle??? better yet. do you have ANY of that at Eagle???

 

[siucavflight]

plus a 2 year upgrade!! you guys got all of that at Eagle??? better yet. do you have ANY of that at Eagle???

We got the dollar beer, and no sit time, crew meals means a bag of cashews here. Two year upgrades we are working on.
Stability we have also(branded flying here means AA.)

If I knew that things were going to stay the same at Xjet, but I feel like the time to get in was about a year ago. I chose to go to eagle because I feel like in two or three years this will be the regional to be at.

 

[paid4training]

Or a strong possiblity of loosing your job when CAL pulls another bunch of planes....
A company that has missed the 70 and 90 seat market
A company that could not get a 50 SEAT CONTRACT(they claim they specialize in) with Midwest
A company that is going to have A LOT OF COMPETION WITH THIER OWN BRANDED FLYING....

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

A company that could not get a 50 SEAT CONTRACT(they claim they specialize in) with Midwest

We missed out on that due to the fact that we can't fly out of EWR due to our current CPA with CAL... You have no idea what you're talking about Mr. 500 hours.

 

[siucavflight]

We missed out on that due to the fact that we can't fly out of EWR due to our current CPA with CAL... You have no idea what you're talking about Mr. 500 hours.

But he paid 4 his training so it is worth like 3000 hours!

 

[Master Shake]

Or a strong possiblity of loosing your job when CAL pulls another bunch of planes....

And we keep those as we have first right of refusal.

A company that has missed the 70 and 90 seat market

The door isn't closed on that one. Unless you mean we missed the chance to fly those for 50 seat rates, in which case you'd be correct.

A company that could not get a 50 SEAT CONTRACT(they claim they specialize in) with Midwest

Have one to be announced shortly. Furthermore, operating 274 Embraer's for 10 years now qualifies us to make that statement, and stand by it.

A company that is going to have A LOT OF COMPETION WITH THIER OWN BRANDED FLYING....

And the sun will surely rise tomorrow. What exactly is your point. Let's look at newer carriers who have all faced the same thing: Air Tran, JetBlue, Frontier. They've somehow managed. I'm sure we will too.

If you're going to spout off like you know, then jot down a few facts for next time. We still have 205 airplanes flying for CAL that will clear a 70 million dollar profit this year. That's guaranteed. Charter division is going like gangbusters with talks of adding more aircraft (legacys to be specific). A total of 44 airplanes in our branded system with cities literally begging us to add them to the route map. Possible additions to this fleet will be announced in December. Lastly, 300 million free and clear in our bank and literally zero debt. You've been educated. Now just watch the magic happen as we take this company to another level.

 

[paid4training]

We missed out on that due to the fact that we can't fly out of EWR due to our current CPA with CAL... You have no idea what you're talking about Mr. 500 hours.

I know a he!! of alot more than you think texan...I have been around when xjt was Continental Express (one and only) and spun off and sold off by the Globe....Although 500tt is close but not accurate to my airline experience, I have been around and know the company for almost 10years (I don't have a letter in my emp number)...but thanks anyway.

 

[paid4training]

But he paid 4 his training so it is worth like 3000 hours!

didn't you pay for your training? Pvt, comm, Inst or what...geez lighten up dude!!!

 

[paid4training]

And we keep those as we have first right of refusal.



The door isn't closed on that one. Unless you mean we missed the chance to fly those for 50 seat rates, in which case you'd be correct.



Have one to be announced shortly. Furthermore, operating 274 Embraer's for 10 years now qualifies us to make that statement, and stand by it.



And the sun will surely rise tomorrow. What exactly is your point. Let's look at newer carriers who have all faced the same thing: Air Tran, JetBlue, Frontier. They've somehow managed. I'm sure we will too.

If you're going to spout off like you know, then jot down a few facts for next time. We still have 205 airplanes flying for CAL that will clear a 70 million dollar profit this year. That's guaranteed. Charter division is going like gangbusters with talks of adding more aircraft (legacys to be specific). A total of 44 airplanes in our branded system with cities literally begging us to add them to the route map. Possible additions to this fleet will be announced in December. Lastly, 300 million free and clear in our bank and literally zero debt. You've been educated. Now just watch the magic happen as we take this company to another level.

I have been educated waaay before your response regarding the direction of the company.

facts
-205 airframes....until cal can pull more out as per the CPA in 2010

-Charter division is doing well....but you can't charter every airplane out of cal system

-the CPA will not change in regards to competing with CAL out of certain hubs such as NY, sooo it will difficult to find someone to fly the next batch released by cal. They(CAL) has already said they are going to release more out of the agreement.

-Cal and XJt are in a perverable p!ssing contest right now and it doesn't look like it will get better anytime soon. (As per JR)

-the Branded flying is being done "under the radarscope" of other carriers as not to p!ss anyone off and start a bidding war. WN will get wind of this and start slashing or adding frequent flyer miles into certain routes. You have to have a load factor of like 55% to break even in these planes.

-xjt missed the 70/90 seaters market. There is a waiting list for those planes. XJT went from EMB speed dial number 1 to ..."who's this again" in a matter of 2 years. They actually shut down the 145 line at emb(yes they can get it going again etc.). They (the company) could have added a new aircraft years ago but did not want to unless a barrel of oil was at $40, I don't think that is going to happen ANYTIME SOON....

I hope things work out and don't have to use that $300 mil to pay out losses, things are very much in the air as far as success with the branded flying and the ability to get other customers because of the restraints of the CPA. Look at the stock price, I am not the only one questioning the vility of the venture.

 

[pgcfii2002]

Nice avatar!

 

[paid4training]

Thank you sir..:beer:

 

[siucavflight]

didn't you pay for your training? Pvt, comm, Inst or what...geez lighten up dude!!!

I was joking! By the way nice avatar, I cant stop staring!
I hope the XJT guys the best, I would like to see every regional succeed(except ho-jets). When trying to decide XJET or Eagle, it is not as easy a decision as some make it out to be. I was offered a job with both companies within days of each other, after a lot of weighing my options I chose Eagle. Smart Choice? Only time will tell, right now I am very happy at Eagle, they pay well, I live in base, have good benefits, a lot of stability, and what is soon to be a rapidly decreasing upgrade time to CA, the crews here are great(as are the crews at XJET, I have met a lot of them). I dont understand the pissing match, we are all brothers here, we should support each other and be happy for each other when their company is doing well, hopefully the branded flying will do well, and I think that it will.
Eagle, or XJET. You have to decide, good and bad at both places, but which one has more good for YOU??? And you are the only one who can decide.

 

[Master Shake]

We're planning for 2010. If we don't win the bid, or we have better options we can and will keep those 51 airframes.

I don't see there being an unlimited ability to charter the planes, but it is a new an untapped market, so it is anyone's best guess as to how much lift is really needed.

We don't want to go into EWR, CLE or IAH. If we did, we'd hit BKL in CLE, EFD in IAH. There's nothing scoping us out of those airports.

We're doing it under the radar because we learned from FlyI. WN can get bent all they want, but they can't fight everyone. Add to that the fact theat they have (nor will they have) any additional lift to throw at us. Their competition will come at us on a route by route basis with one or two stops vs. our non-stop. Plus, we aren't targeting WN's "price conscious" customers. We are a Full Service airline with Full Service fares.

You can't honestly compare the 170/190 line to the 737 line. Boeing has wait times spanning years. Embraer is not so limited (assuming that's what we'd order). Furthermore, we couldn't get anything larger that the 145 as long as we were CAL's hooker. Looks to me like a door just opened there.

As far as our stock price goes, so what? It's never bounced back from the initial IPO. The analysts driving that are ignorant as to what we are really trying to do. All they can think of is comparing us to FlyI, when in fact we couldn't be further from their business model. Then there's Michael Boyd, the village idiot who just stirs the pot. I bet he can't remember the last time he made an accurate forecast. Hard to be wrong when you cover every base so that you can pat yourself on the back when one of your shotgun predictions hits something. Yet, people listen to this baffoon.

Truth is, you and all the other naysayers really ought to wait until December. That's when you'll have a really accurate picture of how it is playing our for us. Maybe you'll be able to dig this thread up and rub it in my face. Honestly, I think it will be me chiding all of you. We shall see.

 

[paid4training]

I hope you can...I am part of this entire deal...actually I am knee deep in it so I hope you are right. But the question was xjt or eagle and you have to admit eagle owned by amr is a little more secure than xjt in the future. Xjt should have jumped on the 70/90 seat market early on but reamster wanted $40 barrel oil....I just hope xjt is not set too much in its ways and ends up in trouble. As far as pay for the 70/90 seaters, you and I both know xjt management/union can write up a LOA and that prob will be done with.....

 

[pgcfii2002]

I love women.

 

[Master Shake]

Thread drift...

You were right, Eagle is the safest choice. If you look at the SKW v. XJT thread, I told that guy to go to SKW for the safe bet. So, I agree with you there.

Re-drift...
Didn't you read what I wrote regarding the larger airplanes? We were NOT ALLOWED to buy anything larger. All our flying was for CAL and they called the shots. Not so much now. It sounds like you work for CAL or Chelsea. I'm not asking and don't need to know, but too many CAL employees I talk with are really in the dark regarding where we are today and why.