Eagle Jet International and Ameriflight

[shadow]

Considering a piston program offered via Eagle Jet International. Understand it is with Ameriflight in Burbank. I would like to hear from the Ameriflight guys or anyone about the pro's and con's of this program and what the possibilty of emploment is after completion. It will put me at 1200tt, 200+ multi, 135 mins...

Also, does anyone know who eagle jet does their C-90 program with?

Thanks....

 

[puddlejumper]

Eagle Jet King Airs

I'm definitely not an expert on Eagle Jet, but I have been involved with a little bit of their program. I've been flying for a skydiving/aircraft leasing company for a couple of months now and have been "assigned" a few Eagle Jet co-pilots. I've flown with timebuilders in A90s, B90s and Twin Otters so far. I'm required to be in the left seat and for one of the guys, I was required to do all takeoffs and landings. He'd pretty much fly the climb, jumprun and descent profiles with my coaching. It's really up to the discretion of the PIC. I think you pay like $80/hr. It's frustrating for me, I'm essentially a puppeteer/babysitter for the first few loads. I'm not paid to be a King Air instructor but as a MEI, I do what I can. You could be assigned to a PIC who is not an MEI however. I try to incorporate CRM, but if an intercom isn't installed, that's about impossible. One guy got hired to fly skydivers right after completing his 50 hours, so that's always a possibility.

Gotta run, I'd be more than happy to answer your questions when I can.

-PJ

 

[naviondriver]

Eagle Jet International

Shadow,

How did things work out with Eagle Air? I'm down here in South Florida and was thinking of doing their Pistion Twin or Caravan program. I was thinking of Gulfstream until I read all the posts!! I have about 550 hours but not much twin time (6hrs!!), and thought it might be a good way to build some hours and get some 135 experience. Any thoughts??

Naviondriver

 

[klm # 789]

Eagle jet

I need information about Eagle jet international.

I know it is al expensive, but i need to know what kind of company it is. Please forward al the info you have for me.....

Thank you,

Greetzzzz KLM 789

 

[puddlejumper]

Eagle Jet

I believe Eagle Jet deals with different operators around the country and waits until there is a seat available. When an opportunity comes up, they pay the operator/owner for the timebuilder to go fly their airplanes. I'm sure the experiences vary dramatically. With the company I flew for, you (the timebuilder), show up expecting to log some PIC time in a King Air or DHC-6. Once you get there, you may find out that the guy you're flying with just got checked out in the airplane himself (as was the case with one of the guys I had last summer with the Twin Otter). Also, you may find out that there are restrictions. ie, you can only fly from the right seat or you can't do takeoffs or landings or the actual PIC is not an MEI, so you can't log any of the time he/she is flying...

Ask about what sort of part 91 operators you would be going to if you signed up. Right seat in a skydive airplane may not be the experience you think you are paying decent money for. Good luck!

-PJ

 

[hopeful]

It is a PFT sham like all of the others. You will pay roughly $16,000 to go ride around in the right seat of an aircraft not requiring you. (I.E. you can't log it) I have heard some of the dumba$$ F/O say they are logging it and have some dreamed up scheme on how they think it is legal, but bottom line is this-

If you are not a required crewmemeber and you are not the sole manipulator of the controls then you can't.(which you won't be since Ameriflight is part 135 and you won't be checked out as PIC) You might get in some aircraft that don't require two pilots and have a captain that is a MEI and log some dual, but why would you pay that much money to log some dual multi time.

Besides, you are going to have to explain why you have 300 hours of dual in a piston or light twin turboprop. (even the crappiest aviator doesn't require 300 hours of dual) It is just flat not worth it.

Quit trying to cut corners and go out and find yourself a job. Pay your dues and move on like the rest of us.

Shadow-

If you have 1100tt then go out and fly another 100 hours and get hired in the left seat. You will save money and pride. Do the right thing and don't give Eagle or Ameriflight a penny to go ride in a Navajo. That has got to be the most pathetic idea I have ever heard. Have some pride and suck it up.

 

[Speedtree]

Attaboy Hopeful,

I agree.

Shadow, I can see how you would be tempted to spend your hard-earned, or not so hard-earned, money on this kind of program. I am not familiar with this exact one but the whole thing sounds very sketchy, bordering on illegal (based on how one would log the time). Take a step back and look at the big picture and you will hopefully see that honest time spent building honest hours is much better than paying for someone else's get rich scheme. You might get some interesting experiences but any kind of program in which you pay to ride along where you are not needed is, in my opinion, not real flying.

You could buy a lot of twin time and do a lot of cross-country flying for that amount of money. Better yet, do as hopeful suggested.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T - not!

Don't do it, especially in this kind of program. I like Puddlejumper's description of P-F-T at his company. The time logged may be attractive, but is it legal? Possibly. Possibly not. I'd tend to think not, especially because the P-F-T "SIC" isn't being allowed to take off and land the airplane - a basic requirement of being a legal SIC. Do you call that real flying? I like his "puppet" description.

For a moment, let us assume the time is legal. You attend an interview and the pilot board sees time that is incongruous with your level of experience. If any one of the pilots is anti-P-F-T, I'd go to Vegas and place a $1 meg bet that you'll be blackballed. Why make a similar bet with your P-F-T "tuition"? Search the rest of the board about P-F-T. I submit that opinions expressed therein are a representative cross-section, pro and con, of P-F-T sentiment among pilots.

One other thing. How do you know for sure that you won't be conned out of your P-F-T "tuition"? How do you know that the P-F-T company won't take your deposit, train you, deem you untrainable and wash you out, and not refund your deposit? Aside from how P-F-T hurts pilots overall, as I have opined prolifically elsewhere, that notion stinks to high heaven, at least to me. Not making takeoffs or landings falls under this "scam" heading, too.

I realize that I am vehement in my opposition to P-F-T. I do not intend to start or incite another P-F-T discussion. But this was a solicitation for advice that merited an $0.02 response.

Good luck with any decision you may make.

 

[LittleDeuce]

Twin Otter

Would any of you Otter drivers tell me where a good place to do some part time Otter flying would be?

I have 3000 hours in the DHC-6-300 as a Captain/Instructor/Check Airman and would LOVE to fly one again!

Thanks!

 

[bobbysamd]

Otter flying

Would any of you Otter drivers tell me where a good place to do some part time Otter flying would be?

I have 3000 hours in the DHC-6-300 as a Captain/Instructor/Check Airman and would LOVE to fly one again!

Thanks!

Scenic?

Just a thought.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

so I take it you guys have the same opinions on the lear or citation courses that eagle jet offers? Considering I can't meet any companies insurance minimums to get hired as a corporate f/o because I can't get any one to let me build any time in a jet, I can't even get a job instructing in a light piston twin because I don't have enough multiengine dual given time. how the hell else is someone supposed to get the insurance requirements without buying into a company like eagle jet

 

[Bill Nelson]

The same way the rest of us did. You work for it, not buy it.

Nobody buys that poor little rich kid crap. If you have the money to buy into Eagle Jet schemes, go rent a plane and build some multi-time, then go get a job.

 

[embdrvr]

Eagle Jet

For a while when times were good for pilots a guy with Gulfstream or Eagle Jet background could slip through the cracks and get hired by a quality regional. They way things are now everyone is very picky about who gets called for an interview much less getting a job offer. Noone in the hiring department is under any pressure to fill classes. There are 100 times more applicants than positions and filling a class is easy to do. If you go through a program like Eagle Jet or Gulfstream many of us will not have much respect for you and do whatever we can to keep you from getting in the door. Why set yourself up for failure? If you pursue a more traditional route all doors will be open to you.
When you interview for an airline position at least one or two, possibly more captains will evaluate you. Their recommendations generally carry a lot of weight. My guess is that all airlines pretty much require consensus from everyone on the interview team before you get an offer. Do you really think that you'll ever encounter 2 or 3 pilots that would actually want to hire someone who whored himself out? One might be sympathetic......Are you a betting man?

 

[embdrvr]

cry me a friggin' river

so I take it you guys have the same opinions on the lear or citation courses that eagle jet offers? Considering I can't meet any companies insurance minimums to get hired as a corporate f/o because I can't get any one to let me build any time in a jet, I can't even get a job instructing in a light piston twin because I don't have enough multiengine dual given time. how the hell else is someone supposed to get the insurance requirements without buying into a company like eagle jet

If you have that kind of money you could go into a partnership on an old PA-23 that you can run on mogas. I knew a couple of guys that did that back in the early 90's. You can get a few 100 hrs and then get most of your investment back. I got a good deal on some block time from one of them. I know guys that have been hired by 135 outfits with very little twin time and they started out flying a Lance or 210 then worked their way up. Some even got VFR 135 jobs. Some of them ended up at Southwest, Frontier and of course all the better regionals. If you hunt around you may be able to find a FBO or flight school with more liberal experience requirements. I travelled from airport to airport to airport knocking on doors resume in hand when I had 500TT in my logbook. I hung out in Vegas bugging Canyon outfits. My first job offer for something other than instructing was in the middle of nowhere. Yeah you might have to move and make some sacrifices. Noone is buying this whining routine of how tough it is if you don't buy seatwarming time. I had a copilot once that was from one of those programs. He only lasted a few weeks. Couldn't fly his way out a wet paper bag and had a crappy attitude and felt overly entitled.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I have more apps out than I can keep track of. On average I actually get a reply from about 1 in every 20 I send out, all saying not hiring we'll keep you in mind in case we do in a couple months (dropped off yet another resume today at a place I've been warned is a lousy place to fly at just to try to get something that pays). I'd take anything right now not involving flight instruction. I was a top notch pilot when I passed my CFI ride.... now I couldn't fly to double pts standards cause I never get to touch the controls. The school I work at has obsurd weather minimums. (how many commercial ops would work in michigan with restrictions to 1000 + ceiling? even for IFR training) if the wind is at 30 knots everything quits even if it's right down the runway. wind chill below -20, sorry. I'm wating for someone to yell at me for trying to fly when the sun is shining because I might get snow blindness. The excuses to not fly around here are obsurd. I probably wouldn't care a bit if I were on salary but if I don't fly I don't eat. I need any chance to get hands on time again. Unfortunately I can't get anyone to throw me a bone. Before 9-11 everyone seemed to jump on a 1000 hour guy with or without much multi time. I've been at my employer for over 2 years and haven't had a chance at even 1 tenth of multi time instructing or transport trip. I've been stuck on 140 multi for 6 months now since every multi for public rent has been taken off line within 100 miles of here. If I am going to buy multi time why not buy turbine multi instead of Seminole or Seneca I? No one will let me touch a turbine besides eagle jet hell noone will even let me touch a seminole right now.

 

[embdrvr]

IBefore 9-11 everyone seemed to jump on a 1000 hour guy with or without much multi time.

Yep those years were an anomaly. Get over it. Many of us worked for years flying singles before getting a break. I remember guys with over 6,000 hours flying single engine piston freight because there were simply no jobs except for PFT with the regionals.
What you have to realize is that this industry is cyclical. This is a down cycle. In the early and mid 90's lots of guys walked away from aviation completely. Some came back during the boom and others kept their day jobs. Some just kept plugging along.
Even if you buy some turbine time from a scammer like Eagle Jet who do you think will hire you? Almost everyone sees right through that nonsense.
How many days have you spent knocking on doors at airports? I'm not talking about mailing in a resume. I'm talking face to face. Every employer has a four foot stack of resumes. Sometimes if you show up in person you'd be amazed. Have you been out to the skydiving operations? Do you have any mechanical ability? I got some part time work doing a little Pt 91 corp flying and helping the mechanics most of the time. I've seen freight operators start a guy out driving parcels on the ground for an hourly wage and letting him pick up some time on Pt 91 legs.
Be creative. Don't just wallow around in self pity making excuses.
You asked why you should buy piston time when you could be buying turbine time from Eagle Jet. The difference is called PIC. Being SIC in a single pilot operation is meaningless. Whoopee. You got to pull the gear handle and talk on the radio and maybe fly if the PIC wasn't worried about you killing him or getting him violated. I've been there. It's more work to babysit someone like you than it is to do the flying myself. I know it sounds harsh but that's reality.
Now go out and start knocking on some doors.

 

[hopeful]

Don't give me that "If I don't fly I don't eat" BullSh!t. If you have $16,000 grand to shove up your arse then you should keep it and buy some food. You are not going to get any symphathy around here buddy. We have all had rough times. We all starved instructing, flying traffic watch or pipline. You need to quit being a pu$$y and go find a job or get the hell out of aviation.

You have 1500 hours and by your own admission can't fly within double the PTS. You don't deserve a job. Shut Up, you are giving me a headache.

Loser!

The excuses to not fly around here are obsurd

Your excuses for wanting to whore yourself out by PFTing are obsurd. Go get a job.

 

[embdrvr]

Quit holding back

Hey Hopeful,
Why don't you tell him how you really feel. I get the impression you're holding back. LOL

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Ok first off I don't have $15000 to throw around, I'm about $30000 in the hole thanks to Western Michigan U. During my student days I was one of the best pilots there, got my instrument and commercial with 141 minimum times. anyway that was 3 years ago. since I satarted instructing I've probably only flown hands on about 15 hours. I spent all my money buying that 100 hours of multi time before september 11 expecting to get a job at 800 to 1000 and 100. I hit 800 on sep 11, the resume never had a chance to be sent in. Had I known there would have been such a crash in the market I would have gone to school to be an electrical engineer and my dad would have got me a $100 k job a GM right out of school, then I could have bought my own plane and fly for fun. I didn't buy into this job to wallow at 10 to 15 k as a flight instructor for years working obscenely long days.

For your information. I no longer have any desire to work at an airline. Way to unstable and pay is dropping like a brick. I would much rather fly for a large corporation at this point. And every one I have talked to has said find some way to build a few hundred hours in something we fly then come talk to us. With them it has been an insurance issue every time. I don't meet insurance requirements without time in type. I can't get time in type because I don't meet insurance requirements. HOW THE HELL DOES SOMEONE GET THE TIME TO MEET INSURANCE REQUIREMENTS WITHOUT THE TIME TO MEET INSURANCE REQUIREMENTS??????????????????

 

[Lonestar]

Man, you really don't get it do you? I'll let you in on a little secret that you should have learned back when you were "one of the best pilots" in flight school...THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS IN AVIATION! Quit being such a pu$$y and grab some sack - or just quit. I really don't care.

 

[embdrvr]

Had I known there would have been such a crash in the market I would have gone to school to be an electrical engineer and my dad would have got me a $100 k job a GM right out of school, then I could have bought my own plane and fly for fun. I didn't buy into this job to wallow at 10 to 15 k as a flight instructor for years working obscenely long days.

For your information. I no longer have any desire to work at an airline. Way to unstable and pay is dropping like a brick. I would much rather fly for a large corporation at this point.

Anyone got a kleenex for this guy?
Listen to him. "My Daddy could have got me a 100K job.' Wahhhh. B.S. I've spent my time in MI and know people at the automakers and not too many people get that kind of starting salary right out of school. Fresh grads are pretty worthless because they lack real experience and need a lot of training. Maybe you can get your Daddy to buy a big corporation and put you in charge of the flight department.
I've got news for you bucko. A lot of those corporate jobs aren't much more stable than the airlines. When a company starts losing money guess what gets sold off in a hurry? Also you've got fractionals swooping in and grabbing flying that used to be done by the flight department.
Do us all a favor and go back to school for that engineering degree. Then you can be another weekend warrior that we can complain about when he can't communicate properly with ATC. You don't sound like you have a place in this industry.
Sincerely,
A guy that did some wallowing for 10-15K as a CFI for too long

 

[hopeful]

I was just following the lead of the retard who could have gotten a job making 100K right out of school. Guess I won't do that again.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

OK back on subject. You say that the time eagle jet offers isn't legal to log because everything is single pilot. The FBO I used to teach at (before closing the flight school and charter dep.) Flew a C-425 conquest which was a single pilot airplane but required a copilot per it's 135 operations manual. therefor it was legal to log sic when on 135 legs. also last time I checked a learjet required 2 pilots per the a/c certification. So if I flew copilot in a lear reguardless of which regs flying under I could log sic.
As far as noone counting this time cause it's not paid flying. I work with a number of people that have taken "free flights" flying for angel flight, one got to fly a 421 to florida for his dad's company (no pay), some have offered to fly copilot for free around the cargo airports just to get flight time. does that mean they all are unhirable too? what is the difference buying 100 hours in a seminole or 100 hours in a king air other than the king air time is generally thought of as "better time" cause it is tubine time? why should it matter if the seminole is rented from an FBO and the king air is bought through eagle jet? EITHER WAY IT IS BUYING FLIGHT TIME.....JUST LIKE YOU DID AT LEAST TIL YOU GOT YOUR COMMERCIAL CERT.

 

[PCL_128]

About legality: As long as the 135 operator has it in their Ops Specs that an SIC is a required crewmember, then you can log SIC time legally. If this requirement is not in the Ops Specs, then SIC in a piston is a joke. Eagle Jet contracts with many different operators and I'm not sure if all of them have SIC requirements in their Ops Specs. I'd look into it if I were you. Don't just assume that Eagle Jet has taken care of all legalities.

About Eagle Jet: About a year ago a friend of mine was thinking about going to Eagle Jet. I was a flight instructor at the school he was getting his ratings at and I had just gotten the job offer from Pinnacle, so he asked for my advice. I flew down with him to Miami to talk to the marketing people at Eagle Jet. I was not very impressed.

There is no pay while you are in their "program." They have no figures about washout rates from the different programs. They give no promises of jobs or even interviews when the time you payed for is complete. They don't guarantee you any timeframe that you will finish your hours in. In short, it is a very shady operation. I'd avoid it if I were you.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

thanks for real answers instead of just going off the deep end about "pft" But that still leaves me without any known way to slip my foot into the door of something beyond flight instruction in a 172... There are no multiengine planes anywhere around me for rent, and the planes at the university I work at only 3 insructors get to teach in. (I'm not one of them, still have 4 others with higher seniority to get the slot before me and I've been there, with my MEI from the start, for 2+ years) and the university will not rent out the multiengine planes except to the students for syllabus instruction.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What about pay for jobs info online sites like jetjobs and airapps?
are these a bunch of crap too?

 

[embdrvr]

There are no multiengine planes anywhere around me for rent, and the planes at the university I work at only 3 insructors get to teach in. (I'm not one of them, still have 4 others with higher seniority to get the slot before me and I've been there, with my MEI from the start, for 2+ years) and the university will not rent out the multiengine planes except to the students for syllabus instruction.

Hey there whiny snivelly kid,
Why don't you get off your lazy arse and move somewhere where there are better opportunities? Most of us have moved many times for this career path. I don't know if anyone has let you in on this secret but there are 47 other states in CONUS plus HI and Alaska. In this profession you sometimes have to move where the work is.
I'm pretty sure you're single because most women won't put up with someone so whiny so you probably don't have anything tying you down. Or perhaps you don't want to move very far from your Mommy. Here kid, have a lolipop, it'll be OK.
Quit with the excuses already. You're just trying to rationalize a stupid decision and a bunch of us are wasting our keystrokes on you. Listen to all the poeple that have posted trying to enlighten you.

 

[Freight Dog]

I ran into some Eagle Jet people when I worked at Ameriflight. Many were foreigners, but some were Americans which was pretty surprising.

The deal, at least at Ameriflight, was you'd get an SIC checkout (in a Chieftain?!), and you'd be assigned to a flight. Now, an interesting thing is if you didn't show up, the flight would go without you. So much for the "required crewmember."

As for getting hired by Ameriflight afterwards, that was a big NEGATIVE. If you got hired directly by AMF as a captain-intern, you'd get paid for the same thing that EJI people were paying for. The difference was that as a captain-intern you'd have a PIC job waiting for you when you broke 1200 hours and/or met the FAR 135 mins.

In short... EJI is a WASTE OF MONEY!!!

Oh and WMU... if you meet the minimums of FAR 135.243(c), there is work if you are willing to move. Don't be shy to start in a single engine airplane and get into a twin in a couple of months. A few examples are Flight Express. Check them out at http://www.flightexpress.com

Another place is Ram Air Freight. http://www.ramairfreight.com

Many places don't advertise... you just need to be persistant and you'll eventually get paid to build your multi time. I had 8 hours multi and a bare multiengine rating when I got my first twin job.

 

[embdrvr]

The deal, at least at Ameriflight, was you'd get an SIC checkout (in a Chieftain?!), and you'd be assigned to a flight. Now, an interesting thing is if you didn't show up, the flight would go without you. So much for the "required crewmember."

Hey Freight Dog,
Is it true that Ameriflight would bump the SIC if there was more freight than usual? Someone told me that the SIC would get bumped for weight and balance reasons and get stranded somewhere and have to find his own way home.
That is too funny. I can understand the foreigners doing the SIC gig since other countries lack the flying opportunities here in the good ole USA.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey Freight Dog,
Is it true that Ameriflight would bump the SIC if there was more freight than usual? Someone told me that the SIC would get bumped for weight and balance reasons and get stranded somewhere and have to find his own way home.
That is too funny. I can understand the foreigners doing the SIC gig since other countries lack the flying opportunities here in the good ole USA.

Yep.. while i haven't seen them leave someone at the outstation, I've seen them get bumped in BUR at night. Most outstations have a layover apartment, so if an SIC gets bumped, they'd probably let them stay in the apartment till the next day. It would definitely suck if it was the last flight of the week, though.